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Thread: Avatar - I really wanted to like this one, too...

  1. #61
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    I wonder how much time most people waste on watching TV, internet forums (gasp!), playing video games, reading fiction novels, watching movies and bungee jumping.

    For some reason those are worthy pursuits.
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    If he were honestly interested in getting them to do such a thing, he'd already be posting there.
    I agree. The way I see it we have two problems that are easy to solve: people on one side that like the movie and space but really haven't given much thought to bringing something like that closer to reality, and jaded grumpy people on the other end that would prefer to gripe rather than spend time engaging the first group. Try to make the first group a bit more grounded in reality and the second group a little more patient with the first and I think we'd see a lot of progress.

  3. #63
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    By the trailers I´ve seen, it´s a gorgeous movie. Pure and, in my case, much needed escapism. I´m planning to see it next week.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    They're free to do as they want, just as I am free to complain about it.
    every hour spent complaining about other people learning a fake language and not writing to government officials is an hour spent not writing to officials.


    you should be ashamed.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridates View Post
    Oh, and one more thing. One big thing that separates those that are interested in space and those that aren't is that the latter usually look at space as a big empty void. Lots of darkness, then more darkness, and that's about it. The former though look at space and see not just the void, but also the possibility of worlds something like Pandora, places that we could explore if we could just get there. Nobody goes to space just to stay there; it's either to go to a different destination, or to create an Earth-like environment (space station) which also serves as a new place to live. If this movie helps bridge the gap between these two then we have another success there.
    And the movie presents georgeous astronomical pictures (Artist views , really striking) .We can admire the big jovian planet in the sky and other moons floating around on their orbit. Pandora is a jovian moon where the spectacle is both in heaven and on the ground.

  6. #66
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    Movie is good, may be should have reduced emotional and spiritual scences a bit.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by glucker View Post
    every hour spent...not writing to government officials is an hour spent not writing to officials...
    you should be ashamed.
    Oh. What address/es did you use

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridates View Post
    Sounds like a bet. Try it out, and show us the tepid support that your suggestion brings. Start here:

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gi...d=207837475672
    Done.

  9. #69
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    * Jeopardy Music*

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    They are real languages. Just as real as English, French, Mandarin Chinese...
    Sorry, no. The languages you just cited are all recognized by one or more governments as languages. I seriously doubt that any government body is printing up documents in things like Dwarvish, Elvish, etc., yet many times they will print up documents in real languages spoken by only a handful of people.

    Esperanto, as one example, was a language invented back in the late 19th Century, and has hundreds of thousands of speakers.
    Yes, and a pre-Star Trek William Shatner starred in the only movie to be made with that language. Esperanto is not a real language, it was an attempt to create a "global language" and do away with all the other various languages out there as a means to bring about world peace. That's worked out well, don't you think?

  11. #71
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    So a language is only "real" if it's recognized by a government? Where's that definition listed? Since when were you the arbiter of whether a language is "real" or not?

    There are many "dead" languages that exist that governments aren't printing up documents in. According to your (pseudo) logic, those were never languages. Yet what are historians picking through...?

    Languages exist for only one reason: To communicate. If a language contains a self-contained vocabulary and the ability to communicate concepts, it's a language. It doesn't matter what government votes on or dictates what is or is not a language.

    So like you said, "Sorry, no". Nice try, though.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    I wonder how much time most people waste on watching TV, internet forums (gasp!), playing video games, reading fiction novels, watching movies and bungee jumping.

    For some reason those are worthy pursuits.
    To some people, yes. Other people would prefer to do different things. To each his/her own. I wasn't objecting to the idea of people enjoying the film, I was objecting to the idea that people wanting to learn the language would somehow significantly boost folks getting involved in astronomy, etc.

    It is amazing what fans can do. The shuttle Enterprise was named after Trek fans bombarded NASA with letters suggesting that name (ironically, for a shuttle which won't ever leave the atmosphere), would that those fans had also written their Congress Critter to ask for more money for NASA (might not have lost two shuttle crews if they had done this). It irritates me that many SF film producers will be more than happy to use NASA footage or expertise in the making of a film, but can't be bothered to stick a notice in the credits, or their website, or whatever, asking for folks to publicly support NASA. In case folks haven't noticed, the shuttles stop flying next year and there's no progress on getting the replacement system going (can't even make up their mind as to what kind of replacement system to use, either).

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan
    To some people, yes. Other people would prefer to do different things. To each his/her own. I wasn't objecting to the idea of people enjoying the film, I was objecting to the idea that people wanting to learn the language would somehow significantly boost folks getting involved in astronomy, etc.
    So you were objecting to a straw man?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    So a language is only "real" if it's recognized by a government? Where's that definition listed? Since when were you the arbiter of whether a language is "real" or not?

    There are many "dead" languages that exist that governments aren't printing up documents in. According to your (pseudo) logic, those were never languages. Yet what are historians picking through...?

    Languages exist for only one reason: To communicate. If a language contains a self-contained vocabulary and the ability to communicate concepts, it's a language. It doesn't matter what government votes on or dictates what is or is not a language.

    So like you said, "Sorry, no". Nice try, though.
    There's a difference between a dead language and a fictional one. And yes, governments are the arbitrators of such things. That's generally how it works. If I declare that I'm living in the Republic of Petoria, it doesn't do me a bit of good without international recognition. If a government doesn't recognize something as a language, then it doesn't matter what you and I say, it's not.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    So you were objecting to a straw man?
    Would rather I object to the quality of a movie I haven't seen yet?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    There's a difference between a dead language and a fictional one.
    According to your logic, a dead language doesn't exist, because governments don't use it when printing documents. QED

    Or are you retracting your premise?

    And yes, governments are the arbitrators of such things.
    Then those languages don't exist. QED.

    That's generally how it works. If I declare that I'm living in the Republic of Petoria, it doesn't do me a bit of good without international recognition. If a government doesn't recognize something as a language, then it doesn't matter what you and I say, it's not.
    So communication doesn't matter, then? Languages are just arbitrarily decided, and having nothing to do with having a vocabulary, grammar, etc.?

    Good to know.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    According to your logic, a dead language doesn't exist, because governments don't use it. QED.
    Well, generally, the opposite of existing is, in fact, dead.
    Or are you retracting your premise?
    No, you're twisting it into something entirely different.



    Then those languages don't exist. QED.
    Not as living languages.



    So communication doesn't matter, then? Languages are just arbitrarily decided, and having nothing to do with having a vocabulary, grammar, etc.?

    Good to know.
    Tell you what, Sparky. You draw up a legal document in Klingon (like a will) and try to get a US court to accept it as being valid without providing a copy in English (or some other language recognized by the US government).

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    Well, generally, the opposite of existing is, in fact, dead.
    No, you're twisting it into something entirely different.



    Not as living languages.
    Yet historians still study them. Why, if they aren't languages?

    Tell you what, Sparky. You draw up a legal document in Klingon (like a will) and try to get a US court to accept it as being valid without providing a copy in English (or some other language recognized by the US government).
    Oh right, back to the "If it's a government document, it's a real language, otherwise no go logic".



    See, I thought languages were about communication. You know. Getting concepts out of your mouth and into another person's ear. Apparently, it's not, even when it has all of the tenets of a language, because some arbitrary body of people didn't announce it to be so.

    Apparently, it's totally possible to communicate with rules, grammar, and vocabulary, but it's not a language. It's not meaningless sound, either. So what should we call it? Since you seem to be inventing it, why don't we call it "Tuckerspeak"?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    Yet historians still study them. Why, if they aren't languages?
    Gosh, aren't you a clever one? You think that you'll back me into some kind of corner where I have to admit that fictional languages are somehow just as valid as those which were developed and spoken by individuals who were creating the language in conjunction with the world around them. By that kind of logic, the laws of physics as defined by Warner Brothers cartoons are just as valid as those defined by scientists.



    Oh right, back to the "If it's a government document, it's a real language, otherwise no go logic".

    One of the functions of government is the arbiter of rules and standards.

    See, I thought languages were about communication. You know. Getting concepts out of your mouth and into another person's ear. Apparently, it's not, even when it has all of the tenets of a language, because some arbitrary body of people didn't announce it to be so.
    Fine, show me a community as in a town, city, or village (not something on the internet) where the majority of the speakers there are native speakers of Klingon, dwarvish, elvish, or other similar language.

    Apparently, it's totally possible to communicate with rules, grammar, and vocabulary, but it's not a language. It's not meaningless sound, either. So what should we call it? Since you seem to be inventing it, why don't we call it "Tuckerspeak"?
    How about we call it what it is: "fictional language." Why is that concept so upsetting to you? Should programmers be upset when people refer to Java as a "computer language"?

  20. #80
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    It's probably pretty easy to find a compromise here: Na'vi is a fictional language that is likely on the verge of becoming a real one. A constructed language IMO becomes real when it becomes standardized learnable by others, who then are able to use it amongst themselves. If the language dies after that then it would become a historical tongue.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    Done.
    Good. Now let's remember to be patient. For every comment there are always another hundred or so that are lurking.

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    Every hour they spend learning the fictional language is an hour not being spent writing their elected officials. Do you really want to bet that they'll be spending an equal number of hours writing their elected officials for every hour they spend learning the fictional language? 'Cause you'll lose that bet.
    Two questions:
    1) How many children (or young people) will you be able to inspire by telling them to write their elected officials about space exploration?
    2) How many will be inspired by this movie?

    Let's see who wins this bet

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan
    Gosh, aren't you a clever one?
    Indeed. I'm also clever enough to know when conversing with an individual will not get anywhere.

    Welcome to the ignore list.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    Indeed. I'm also clever enough to know when conversing with an individual will not get anywhere.

    Welcome to the ignore list.
    TF has been on my ignore list for quite a while. TBF mine is an unusually large one.

  25. #85
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    But what lanaguage is TBF ? does it means : Turkiye Basketbol Federasyonu ?

    Quote Originally Posted by timb View Post
    TF has been on my ignore list for quite a while. TBF mine is an unusually large one.
    TBF , TBF ????

    Acronym Definition
    TBF The Boston Foundation (Boston, MA)
    TBF Token Bucket Filter (packet scheduling algorithm)
    TBF The Beat Fleet (Croatian hip-hop band)
    TBF The Billfish Foundation
    TBF Turkiye Basketbol Federasyonu
    TBF Total Batters Faced (baseball statistic)
    TBF Total Body Fat
    TBF Temporary Block Flow
    TBF Time Between Failures
    TBF To Be Fair
    TBF Trial By Fire
    TBF Tick-Borne Fever
    TBF The Belmore Family (nation states)
    TBF Trajectory-Based Forwarding
    TBF To Be Filed
    TBF To Be Furnished
    TBF Taken By Force
    TBF Grumman Avenger Torpedo Bomber (WWII)
    TBF Team Battlefield (gaming clan)
    TBF Türkiye Bilardo Federasyonu (Turkish Billiard Federation)
    TBF Tre Bokstavs Forkortelse
    TBF Trellian Button Factory File
    TBF Turbofax Fax
    TBF Total Body Failure
    TBF Taco Bar Friday
    TBF The Biar Foundation
    TBF Thermal Balance Fixture

  26. #86
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    Uh, okay.

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    Yes, and a pre-Star Trek William Shatner starred in the only movie to be made with that language. Esperanto is not a real language, it was an attempt to create a "global language" and do away with all the other various languages out there as a means to bring about world peace. That's worked out well, don't you think?
    I disagree with this point. Esperanto was intended to be the global second language, not to replace but to supplement everyone's first language. So, for instance, a French speaker who also speaks Esperanto will be able to communicate with a Japanese speaker who
    also speaks Esperanto. That was Zamenoff's [sp?] hope - hence the name.

    Otherwise, I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, Tuckerfan, and it's a great pity to see the normally sensible SolusLupus being so absurdly obtuse. Yes, it's possible to create an artificial language that has consistent vocab, grammar and so on, but if it is not used in the real world, it is not real. A real language is one which you (or someone else) learned as you grew up, whether you wanted to or not. A real language is part of a nation's culture. While you are within that nation, you have reasonable confidence of being able to communicate with doctors, cleaners, bank staff, railway guards, work colleagues, shop assistants, local government staff, and all the other people you routinely interact with. You're able to follow TV programmes and, yes, read documents issued by the government.

    If you aren't able to communicate with someone, it is probably because they have some communication difficulty, or their first/only language is a different one.

    And Latin, Ancient Greek and so on may not be in current use now, but they clearly were real at one time.

    Finally, putting someone on your ignore list because of an intellectual disagreement is a less-than-admirable act; making a point of telling them you have done this is doubly so.

  28. 2009-Dec-19, 09:19 AM

  29. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Yes, it's possible to create an artificial language that has consistent vocab, grammar and so on, but if it is not used in the real world, it is not real.
    So, until you use a specific hammer, it's not a tool?
    Calm down, have some dip. - George Carlin

  30. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkepticJ View Post
    So, until you use a specific hammer, it's not a tool?
    Is this Obtuse Saturday, and if so, why wasn't I told?

    If a saw is designed for cutting wood, it is a wood saw. Otherwise it isn't. It's still a saw, but it's not a wood saw.

    If a language is (or was) used in the real world, if it grew and developed through use by all manner of people, it is a real language. If it is only used by a small number of enthusiasts of a film, and only then when they are talking to each other, then it is not a real language.

    You might prefer different terminology - say, commonly-used and specialised - but there is clearly a value in distinguishing between the kind of languages we mean when we compare Spanish with Klingon.

  31. 2009-Dec-19, 11:11 AM

  32. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckerfan View Post
    If a government doesn't recognize something as a language, then it doesn't matter what you and I say, it's not.
    Can't help but wonder how people in pre-state societies communicated then. (No, don't answer that.)



    Somewhat on-topic, I saw Avatar y'dy. Glorious visual spectacle, but plotwise the combination of noble savages, mighty whitey, and new-agey mysticism was physically painful at times.

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