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Thread: Something I've wondered...

  1. #1
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    Something I've wondered...

    If the main proponents of this whole belief are so confident that NASA is going so far as killing people to keep the whole thing under wraps then:

    A: why isn't all of FOX suspended from the air for airing their little special?
    B: why don't the people in my classes who believe the conspiracy theory all get arrested? They've voiced their opinions enough.
    C: why haven't people like Sibrel (that the right spelling?) been arrested or assasinated yet?

    *shrugs* just wondering where they get their logic.

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    Re: Something I've wondered...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exar
    just wondering where they get their logic.
    What is this 'logic' you speak of?

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    Re: Something I've wondered...

    Quote Originally Posted by Exar
    just wondering where they get their logic.
    Ikea!

    Sibrel has made claims to being harassed and drugged by the CIA and other such things, but there is no substantiation of this.

    This is one of the huge contradictions prevalent in the Conspiracy Theory. The other biggun is how NASA could fool the world's leading scientists into believing their story and yet couldn't get a reseau grid right.

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    Guess I should've known they wouldn't be using any logic whatsoever. Now, I just need to convince the people in my class...

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    Re: Something I've wondered...

    Quote Originally Posted by Glom
    The other biggun is how NASA could fool the world's leading scientists into believing their story and yet couldn't get a reseau grid right.
    Nah, they're not fooled. They've just been paid off. Or blackmailed - since everyone knows that NASA controls all the world's telescopes. (You don't think the ESA is really a separate organization, do you?)

    Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

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    HAPPY! HAPPY! VERY HAPPY!

    My 16-year old cousin comes to my house. I quote approximately (and I kid you not):

    "My science teacher gave us us a project to determine why we never went to the moon. He showed us some FOX special he had taped. It was pretty cool. Can I show you this book I got for the project? It's by that guy on the show, Kaysing. It's called "We Never Went to the Moon".

    I start to reply.
    "Do you know who...."

    He interrupts:
    "I also found this cool website where I bought this video that some guy was selling. I'll get it on Monday.... My science teacher really shows us some cool stuff."

    asdfibghabvfdhasdvhi;oa
    ryhukry mdthjdhgj
    asdfqw4rh jrwasdflijuhbsdafou
    fsdaliubhfsda
    fru433244
    fdsaj32r

    Sorry, I banged my head on the keyboard a few times.

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    GAHHH!!!

    I've had similar occurances, but not with the Moon Hoax.

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    We lift our prayers to Cynthia for you, BigJim. At the end of the day, it's none of my business, but I'd have words with the teacher. The job of a teacher is to increase the level of learning, not destroy it. Suggest you're cousin come here. Give us five minutes and we'll sort him out.

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    Re: Something I've wondered...

    If the main proponents of this whole belief are so confident that NASA is going so far as killing people to keep the whole thing under wraps ...

    A number of conspiracy theorists have been asked that very question. The answers tend to fall into three categories:

    "I'm too high-profile to murder." (And astronauts aren't?)
    "There are forces inside NASA who want the agency to come clean about Apollo." (And why couldn't those other victims?)
    "But the government does harass and persecute me." (But you're still alive and still publishing books.)

    Obviously you've hit upon a major contradiction in the conspiracy theory. There doesn't seem to be any explanation for the alleged murder of people who were merely "about to reveal" (according to the conspiracy theorist) the hoax, and those who publish and speak prolificly about the hoax who manage to stay alive. Clearly the proferred "explanations" for the deaths of these individuals are not exceptionally plausible.

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    My 16-year old cousin comes to my house.

    You really should find out what the teacher is trying to do. My experience is that even public school teachers are smarter than this. It's likely to be some sort of didactic technique or lesson in critical thinking. I've worked with a number of students that age who are participating in debates where one student is assigned the "pro" hoax point of view and another is assigned to defend against the hoax.

    Obviously there's a danger in presenting pseudoscience with any semblance of approval in a classroom, but I'll bet this is a ploy to get bored students interested in science. Before you hurt your forehead any further, go see if there's a method to this madness.

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    Now, I just need to convince the people in my class...

    Who's got the link to the Metro-whatever article? That's a good example of a largely non-scientific debunking of the hoax theory.

    A lot of this garbage can be debunked by common sense, along the lines of, "If NASA is willing to kill people to keep its secret, why are you still alive?"

    Here's the best approach for people who don't want to delve deeply into the science. The moon landing conspiracy theory is mostly about drawing attention away from a conclusion most people believe is obvious. It's less about presenting evidence for itself than it is about trying to get you not to believe in someone else's evidence. It's mostly about trying to find excuses for disregarding what you can observe, or what other people have said and done.

    So if people have to work so hard to avoid a particular conclusion -- that Apollo really did happen -- it makes you wonder which is really more likely.

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    If I had been given a task like this way back in high school, I would have probably attacked the book and the program with information that I could readily get at a decent library. (I date myself a bit here, no internet for me) I wonder if that is the teacher's aim. To see if any student will look beyond two references to find the real truths. I wish I could have had such an interesting thing to write about in science class.


    Elaine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocasey3
    I wonder if that is the teacher's aim. To see if any student will look beyond two references to find the real truths.
    That would be the best teacher ever.

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    The fourth reason...

    Actually, I have a fourth reason why ** and other have not been killed. It suits NASA for them to spout their theories because they are a bad example of true hoax theory. That is to say, there is a conspiracy behind the conspiracy. ** and others do not have the correct facts on many of the hoax issues therefore by letting them remain alive and run loose, it appears to many therefore that there is nothing to the hoax idea since they are a bad advertisement to HBers. However, under the publicly seen arguments of the hoax, there is a deeper mystery. That is, there is another layer beneath what is currently being seen...

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    Re: The fourth reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rusty Lander
    Actually, I have a fourth reason why ** and other have not been killed. It suits NASA for them to spout their theories because they are a bad example of true hoax theory.
    An interesting idea. Since September 9th, Bart Sibrel has become an object of scorn. He caused a minor backlash that hindered the case of the conspiracists.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rusty Lander
    That is to say, there is a conspiracy behind the conspiracy.
    That perhaps Sibrel and Percy are conspiring to take unsuspecting people's money?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rusty Lander
    ** and others do not have the correct facts on many of the hoax issues therefore by letting them remain alive and run loose, it appears to many therefore that there is nothing to the hoax idea since they are a bad advertisement to HBers.
    Maybe they then have the wrong facts about the assassinations and therefore this whole argument about NASA death squads is moot.

    Of course the logic is deliciously tautological.
    Conspiracists killed => hoax.
    Conspiracists not killed => hoax.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rusty Lander
    However, under the publicly seen arguments of the hoax, there is a deeper mystery. That is, there is another layer beneath what is currently being seen...
    And what would that be, Rusty?

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    That the Apollo landings really, truly happened!!

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    That's insidious!

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    Re: The fourth reason...

    Actually, I have a fourth reason why ** and other have not been killed. It suits NASA for them to spout their theories because they are a bad example of true hoax theory.

    They are the only example of the hoax theory. So your argument is that despite all the duplicity, despite all the ignorance, despite all the fallacy and illogic, they're still somehow right. Excuse me while I horse laugh my saddle off. You're like the prosecutor who, despite even his own witnesses having exonerating the accused, still insists on a guilty verdict. Did you graduate from the same public communications school as the former Iraqi information minister?

    The hoax theory, on its face, is pure speculation. And it's not even logically sound speculation. You're trying to fix the extreme breakage of the theory by adding another layer of speculation. That's exactly the wrong direction. If you have to come up with conjectural reasons why your previous conjecture isn't even consistent with itself, then you're in a world of hurt.

    The conclusion that much better fits the observations is that there is no "NASA death squad" and that NASA does little about the conspiracy theorists because they're confident in most people's ability to see them for the misinformed charlatans that they are.

    However, under the publicly seen arguments of the hoax, there is a deeper mystery.

    Yeah, the "deeper conspiracy" is a bunch of sneaky snake-oil salesmen fleecing the gullible. That's the mystery I see, and it's pretty obvious. Tell me, Rusty, are you one of the gullible?

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    Jay's marvelous when he's angry. He is the living embodiment of unobtanium: the harder you push him, the stronger he gets. 8)

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    I just get the giggles whenever I hear the term "NASA death squad".

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    Angry? I'm laughing my [anatomical region] off.

    Where else can you see someone essentially admit that the case in favor of their belief is putrid, yet there must still be something to it?

    Remember when you were studying the Salem witch trials? I do. I remember reading of the various "tests" to determine whether someone is a witch, and I remember wondering how people could be so incredibly irrational. I like to think that here in these enlightened days such a thing could never happen. But when you read things like the above, you understand exactly why they executed women as witches and exactly why it very well could happen again, just with different accusations and penalties.

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    Sorry. It sounded like one of those laughing fits where you're both amused and angry at the stupidity at the same time.

    I was never taught about the Salem Witch Trials on account of I'm not from around these parts. However, IIRC, the standard practise was to throw the supect in the river or something. If she drowned, it proved she wasn't a witch. If she didn't drown, it proved she was a witch as so they burnt her. Not exactly the finest justice we've ever seen.

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    The Salem witch trials were really nothing special historically, except that it's the only widely known event of it's kind in North America. For the purposes of the above example, just substitute whatever witch trial is most convenient for you. :-)

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    The Salem Witch Trials have going for them that the events were documented, and the documents are still available. Actually, Arthur Miller made a play out of the Witch Trials as a condemnation of the then current witch hunt for communists - The Crucible.

    In salem, no one was burned at the stake. The charges were levied by a group of teenage girls caught playing in the woods in strict puritan Massachusettes. These girls found that by "fainting" and throwing accusations, they garnered lots of attention and power. What started as pointing at one servant lady became widespread accusations against respectable citizens. Executions were either by pressing with rocks (large stones placed on the chest till the victim suffocated) or by hanging. Essentially the accused were tortured until they died or confessed, whereupon they were executed.

    However, Salem occurred at the tail end of the witch hunt craze, after Europe had mostly burned out on the practice. In Europe, burning at the stake had been a popular method of executing the witches. Tests for witches had involved torture as well, but also the dunking under water, the rack, etc.

    Note I say mostly burned out. People in India and Africa are still being killed as witches, with mostly the same evidence. "My cow died, it's her fault, she's a witch and cursed me!" The difference is that the witch hunts of Europe and America were carried out under the guise of government authority, whereas the incidents in India and Africa today are mob acts by uneducated poor folk.

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    Circularities cost lives!

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    These and others are examples I cite when told that I shouldn't waste my time combatting "harmless" conspiracy theories. Uncritical thinking, superstition, and fear-mongering do indeed have dramatic consequences. If you'll believe the silly arguments that we didn't land on the moon, despite all the evidence that we did, what other rubbish will you believe? How will you act on that belief?

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    I needn't remind anyone here that Hitler was pretty good at playing the conspiracism game.

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    Re: The fourth reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rusty Lander
    Actually, I have a fourth reason why ** and other have not been killed. It suits NASA for them to spout their theories because they are a bad example of true hoax theory. That is to say, there is a conspiracy behind the conspiracy. ** and others do not have the correct facts on many of the hoax issues therefore by letting them remain alive and run loose, it appears to many therefore that there is nothing to the hoax idea since they are a bad advertisement to HBers. However, under the publicly seen arguments of the hoax, there is a deeper mystery. That is, there is another layer beneath what is currently being seen...

    I admit that when I first read this, I automatically thought that it was a humorous, tongue in cheek implication that Sibrel et al are actually on the payroll of NASA acting as stooges to draw attention away from "the real conspiracy" (whatever that might be) by their innate ineptness .....

    Coming back to the board several days later & reading the responses, I have re-read the original post....... my goodness - I don't see a smiley.......

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    Who's got the link to the Metro-whatever article? That's a good example of a largely non-scientific debunking of the hoax theory.
    You mean this link?

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...-rpt-9704.html

    Or perhaps this one:

    http://www.metroactive.com/papers/me...-eye-9708.html

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