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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Can you enlighten me with the most "convincing records of it happening" or "pieces of physical evidence"?
    That's not how it works. The current consensus view is that it happened based on the available evidence. You are putting forwards a claim that this view is wrong - hence the burden of proof falls on you to show that your claim better fits the available evidence. Shifting the burden of proof is a classic way to avoid having to present your ideas for scrutiny.

    Your previous answer to my question implies that your sole non-circumstantial piece of evidence against the moon landings is your personal feelings about it. You've presented no evidence to support your argument but you expect me to present evidence to support the mainstream consensus?

    If you do not supply a well structured argument for why your opinions are right, supported by evidence and references to your sources, then I really don't feel the need to continue with this discussion. It boils down to you having an emotional response and valuing it over all other arguments. I try not to base my worldview on other peoples' emotional responses to a topic.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Dust? Videos? Obviously you have never seen the first generation videos taken of the Apollo missions. No worries, no one on this board has. The slow scan videos were not compatible with TV broadcasts at that time. Chances are, you will never see the slow scan videos, NASA lost them. Purportedly, they taped a bachelor party over them. I cannot substantiate this rumor. However, the video broadcast to the world, could never substantiate your claim of dust in a vacuum.
    You can't substantiate the rumour because it's self-evident garbage. How (and indeed why) would you go about recorded a batchelor party on specialized one-inch, 14-track telemetry tape?
    The slow-scan video channel is only relevant to the Apollo 11 mission, when it was piggy-backed as one channel of telemetry, and ended up on the (lost) telemetry tapes. It was converted in real time by ground stations, but some quality was lost in the process. So it would be nice to still have the originals, because we might tease some better quality images out of them, but that's about the only problem there.
    Later Apollo missions broadcast an NTSC television signal to Earth directly.* So original broadcast quality recordings of those signals still exist.

    ETA: Actually a field-sequential colour broadcast, which went out to Australian TV viewers as live black and white, but was processed to NTSC at Houston, by merging the colour channels.

    Honestly, the "lost tapes" argument is a non-argument.

    Grant Hutchison
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    ...
    Engineers? Rarely does anyone who builds or designs something, know how the end user applies it. I don't understand this claim.
    I'm a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've dealt with other engineers for 50+ years. Your statement is patently false.

    Any good engineer will always - always - ask, how do you intend to use this? (It impacts the design.)
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    That is not part of my premise why Apollo is a hoax. I apologize for the confusion. However, to placate the rules, my answer is, I Don't Know. That is not a discussion I care to have.
    As you've now backed away from your #1 reason ...

    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw (edited - see strikeout) View Post
    This reads to me like you don't just think it wasn't done (6 times), but that it can't be done.

    If that's correct, please let me know your #1 #2 technical/scientific reason why you think this.
    Measure once, cut twice. Practice makes perfect.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    no human has ever left earth's atmosphere, is scientifically and semantically correct.
    It is not at all scientifically correct, let alone relevant. No one is this discussion, including yourself, is disputing the idea that various demarcations as to the notion of "where space begins with regard to the atmosphere of the earth" are not arbitrary distinctions depending on what specific topic we are considering for discussion. If the Karman line (as an example), in general, is not good enough for you, then you need to state what is good enough for you. You have not done this.

    But, what that has to do with whether or not humans have traveled to and landed on and returned from the moon is the part of your argument I do not understand because you have not explained why you believe these two ideas are connected.

  6. #96
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    So, um, Ely, where do you think the atmosphere ends? And do you believe it's the same all the way up? And since you mentioned "planes", do you believe the X-15, Space Shuttle, and Branson's "Space Ships" used aerodynamic controls at their highest altitudes?
    Oh, and commercial airliners fly at 40,000 feet. Why do you think they need to be pressurized? And why do mountaineers need supplementary oxygen to climb Everest?
    Oh, and since those here are pretty much beneath your consideration, why don't you take this argument over to International Skeptics Forum? I'm sure you'll find some interesting responses.

    ETA: Do you believe the atmosphere at, say, 100,000 feet AGL is able to sustain life?
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    That's not how it works. The current consensus view is that it happened based on the available evidence. You are putting forwards a claim that this view is wrong - hence the burden of proof falls on you to show that your claim better fits the available evidence. Shifting the burden of proof is a classic way to avoid having to present your ideas for scrutiny.

    Your previous answer to my question implies that your sole non-circumstantial piece of evidence against the moon landings is your personal feelings about it. You've presented no evidence to support your argument but you expect me to present evidence to support the mainstream consensus?

    If you do not supply a well structured argument for why your opinions are right, supported by evidence and references to your sources, then I really don't feel the need to continue with this discussion. It boils down to you having an emotional response and valuing it over all other arguments. I try not to base my worldview on other peoples' emotional responses to a topic.
    So you have no credible evidence? Not surprising, neither does NASA.

    Telemetry tapes, missing, purportedly used to tape an office bachelor party. I cannot substantiate that rumor but the tapes are gone.

    Saturn V, the largest, most powerful and arguably the safest rocket ever built. Complete plans no longer exist. Gone.

    Moon rocks; 85% of the lunar rocks purportedly collected during the hoax Apollo missions are still in NASA's possession. Maybe they don't want to risk giving someone a piece of petrified wood like Armstrong gave the Dutch? Argue the provenance but it's still petrified wood. Artemis is going to the moon, time to let independent scientists have more than a few microns of moon dust to study or would it be too obvious it was collected in Antarctica? I don't know and neither do you.

    OVER HALF A CENTURY has eclipsed and no country and no human has ever left earth's atmosphere, sans the purported Apollo missions.

    When Artemis/SLS fails, as it is currently doing, just as Orion did before and no human leaves the atmosphere, when will you come to the realization, it was a hoax. You were duped. See my signature line.

    There is no credible evidence. Nada, Zip, Zero, The Collar, The Big Doughnut...

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    I'm a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've dealt with other engineers for 50+ years. Your statement is patently false.

    Any good engineer will always - always - ask, how do you intend to use this? (It impacts the design.)
    Any good engineer knows, no matter how well you design it, the end user will invariably....words not fit for a family forum.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    So, um, Ely, where do you think the atmosphere ends? And do you believe it's the same all the way up? And since you mentioned "planes", do you believe the X-15, Space Shuttle, and Branson's "Space Ships" used aerodynamic controls at their highest altitudes?
    Oh, and commercial airliners fly at 40,000 feet. Why do you think they need to be pressurized? An

    d why do mountaineers need supplementary oxygen to climb Everest?
    Oh, and since those here are pretty much beneath your consideration, why don't you take this argument over to International Skeptics Forum? I'm sure you'll find some interesting responses.

    ETA: Do you believe the atmosphere at, say, 100,000 feet AGL is able to sustain life?
    Please refer to the link, earlier in this forum for NASA's explanation of Atmosphere.

    It is scientifically and semantically correct to say, sans the purported Apollo missions, no human has ever left earth's atmosphere.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Telemetry tapes, missing, purportedly used to tape an office bachelor party. I cannot substantiate that rumor but the tapes are gone.
    The rumour is, as I previously pointed, garbage. Telemetry tapes from Apollo 11 were destroyed, many years after all the data had been transcribed. The data are still available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Saturn V, the largest, most powerful and arguably the safest rocket ever built. Complete plans no longer exist. Gone.
    Rubbish. A bit of nonsense that originated in a book by John Lewis, Mining The Sky, in which he claimed, because he couldn't find the blueprints, they must no longer exist. The plans are held at the Marshall Space Flight Center on microfilm. Not to mention the existence of three actual Saturn Vs you can go and look at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Moon rocks; 85% of the lunar rocks purportedly collected during the hoax Apollo missions are still in NASA's possession.
    Wrong again. NASA is the curator for 85% of the moon rocks, but loans them out for display and research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    OVER HALF A CENTURY has eclipsed and no country and no human has ever left earth's atmosphere, sans the purported Apollo missions.
    Is writing "OVER HALF A CENTURY" repeatedly really the best argument you've got? An argument from personal incredulity?
    Because the rest seems to have been simply copied from the writing of credulous hoax believers.

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  11. #101
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    Grant, how do you transcribe SSTV data? Can you post a credible link to this outrageous claim?

    Once again Grant, you are wrong. I may not reply to your OPINIONS anymore. Some Saturn V blueprints were lost, among other design requirements.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1987/05/26/s...on-rocket.html

    NASA is sitting on 85% of the original moon rocks. Some are still in the original containers. Once again Grant, you're wrong.

    https://www.space.com/where-are-nasa...oon-rocks.html

    Grant, since you struck out on three straight posts, this one is for you, OVER HALF A CENTURY!

    Cheers

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadie148 View Post
    But, what that has to do with whether or not humans have traveled to and landed on and returned from the moon is the part of your argument I do not understand because you have not explained why you believe these two ideas are connected.
    It is to demonstrate the absurdity of your moon hoax beliefs. You believe, this one is for you, Grant, OVER HALF A CENTURY AGO, NASA sent astronauts to the moon, with a rover having the wheelbase of a mid size car strapped to the side on a ride to the Moon. They unloaded the car, drove it around in home made suits, caught some rad air, played a little golf, packed up over a 100 pounds of lunar material, got in their space ship and went home.

    Yet today, OVER HALF A CENTURY LATER, the same agency, NASA, can no longer award astronaut wings unless they beg the Russians or Jeff Bezos for a ride. Seriously?

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    So you have no credible evidence? Not surprising, neither does NASA.
    There is overwhelming credible evidence, but much like Shaula I have no interest in spoon feeding evidence to you that you could easily find for yourself, especially when, from the sound of it, you just listen to the bad arguments by the hoax claimers, and would almost certainly dismiss evidence out of hand.

    Maybe they don't want to risk giving someone a piece of petrified wood like Armstrong gave the Dutch? Argue the provenance but it's still petrified wood.
    Armstrong didnít give a piece of petrified wood to the dutch. U.S. ambassador J. William Middendorf gave a piece of petrified wood as a gift to the dutch prime minister. The prime minister apparently thought it was a moon rock, but it isnít clear how he got that notion. You apparently think NASA would deliberately hand out items easily verifiable as not moon rocks, but claiming they are?

    Artemis is going to the moon, time to let independent scientists have more than a few microns of moon dust to study or would it be too obvious it was collected in Antarctica? I don't know and neither do you.
    Moon rocks have been going out to geologists all over the world since the landings, not just a few microns of moon dust, and no, they arenít meteorites from Antarctica. Meteorites show evidence of atmospheric heating and being in Earthís environment.

    There is no credible evidence. Nada, Zip, Zero, The Collar, The Big Doughnut...
    Nonsense. You havenít shown the evidence isnít credible, you just claim it.

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  14. #104
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    Van Rijn, I respect your opinions but until you have credible evidence like I have posted throughout this thread, they are just opinions. You have no credible evidence, nada, none, the big zero.

    Neil Armstrong AND Buzz Aldrin passed on the fake moon rock:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...n-is-fake.html

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Van Rijn, I respect your opinions but until you have credible evidence like I have posted throughout this thread, they are just opinions. You have no credible evidence, nada, none, the big zero.
    The moon rocks, for one, are credible evidence.


    Neil Armstrong AND Buzz Aldrin passed on the fake moon rock:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...n-is-fake.html
    No. From here:

    https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2009/0..._petrified_wo/

    A lump of rock from moon given to former prime minister Willem Drees by the US ambassador in 1969 is actually a piece of petrified wood, the Parool reports on Monday. The piece of rock, which was kept on the former prime minister’s desk and later donated to the Rijksmuseum, was given to the Netherlands by ambassador J. William Middendorf II to commemorate the first moon landing, the paper says. But Rijksmuseum scientists say the rock is simply fossilised wood. And, the museum’s Xandra van Gelder points out, the accompanying document did not state it was moon rock, but simply ‘to commemorate’ the landing.


    (emphasis added)

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

    I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

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  16. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    <snip>
    Once again Grant, you are wrong. I may not reply to your OPINIONS anymore. Some Saturn V blueprints were lost, among other design requirements.
    You were warned that you must answer questions put to you, you may not choose what you will answer, and you need to be polite. You've ignored all those warnings and this will earn you a suspension.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ely View Post
    Van Rijn, I respect your opinions but until you have credible evidence like I have posted throughout this thread, they are just opinions.
    This thread will be closed during your suspension. When you return, if you wish to start posting credible evidence (I've seen none so far) and to answer all questions politely, Report this post and request that the thread be reopened.

    You may not start another thread on this topic - this is your only avenue to discuss this on CQ.
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