Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: Universal Darwinism ATM closed for mod discussion?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106

    Universal Darwinism ATM closed for mod discussion?

    Just wondering whats going on with my closed post please? There has been no status update for a few days

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    At this point, the consensus is that it will remain closed. The ATM forum is not intended for unsupported speculation.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    At this point, the consensus is that it will remain closed. The ATM forum is not intended for unsupported speculation.
    im curious if you read it?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    Yes.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post
    Yes.
    Are you able to explain why it cannot be so?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    I assumed the error of an ATM thread would be disclosed in thread, justifying its closure?

    "this ATM idea doesn't work because.............."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    Are you able to explain why it cannot be so?
    As I said, the ATM forum is not intended for unsupported speculation. Answering questions about your assertions with yet more unsupported assertions lacks rigor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    I assumed the error of an ATM thread would be disclosed in thread, justifying its closure?

    "this ATM idea doesn't work because.............."
    The closing comment had not been finalized because we hadn't yet reached the critical mass we normally like to have for consensus. Moderator availablity has been a bit thinner than usual of late, what with real life going on the way it does.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    I went back to finalize the thread closing remarks and found that I already had, on the 28th. Since then we've had additional agreement that the thread will remain closed.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    I note your update. You say I'm spitballing, storytelling! I understand you think an effort like this is fantasy, but you judge early. What can I appeal that you guys and gals would then afford me the opportunity to speak? You must follow my plot to some extent, what is so implausible, other than its contradicting your established views? It is at the very least an attempt to extend explanation towards the world complexity problem, the fine-tuning of physical systems. Thats unique. and while using a credible scientific theme, a known natural organizational principle. Is it really appropriate or even necessary to close the conversation down prematurely?



    "Closed pending moderator discussion.

    Edit to add:

    The thread will remain closed. The ATM forum is not the place for unsupported speculation, spitballing, or story telling."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    7,310
    It's not that unique. Smolin has been proposing something based on evolutionary principles to solve the same problems since the 90s. It is linked to multiverses rather than a single universe but rooted in existing physics in terms of the mechanisms that could drive it.
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...ral-selection/

    I made my views on what you were doing pretty clear in the thread - I will leave them there. Suffice to reiterate that they had nothing at all to do with you challenging my established views and everything to do with the content and presentation of what you were proposing.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    a long way away
    Posts
    10,993
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    What can I appeal that you guys and gals would then afford me the opportunity to speak?"
    I would suggest you do some science: produce a mathematical model, some testable (ie quantitative - which is why a mathematical model is required) predictions, and then show how well those predictions match observations.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    It's not that unique. Smolin has been proposing something based on evolutionary principles to solve the same problems since the 90s. It is linked to multiverses rather than a single universe but rooted in existing physics in terms of the mechanisms that could drive it.
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...ral-selection/

    I made my views on what you were doing pretty clear in the thread - I will leave them there. Suffice to reiterate that they had nothing at all to do with you challenging my established views and everything to do with the content and presentation of what you were proposing.
    Credit to Smolin and Richard Dawkins for having the wits to recognize and take the complexity problem and fine-tuning problem seriously. Most take for granted, wink wink nudge nudge. Their evolutionary mechanisms were pretty nebulous, and if you think mine are less than very specific, then you might benefit another read.

    Contrary to your suggestion, my concept has bearly a comparative with their approach. I didnt realize "unique" could be such a subjective term. But I like that you began to tune in on my idea and fashion appropriate tests "re brown dwarf stars". That was promising if I had been afforded the opportunity to answer. You are willing to meet on the same playing field, and form appropriate challengers. Rather than the demand for maths to support a Darwinian hypothesis. I knew that was coming. Charles was about finches beaks adapted optimized to suit seed stocks. An appropriate response to my discussion would be, "why Darwinian mechanisms can or cannot work within the scenario as I set them out?" Or alternatively "why my scenario doesnt stand against observations?". So little to expect, yet I receive nothing resembling.

    Yesterday I met a person complaining of having a memory disability and apologizing for being a bit slow, and he gave me a reasonable summation of the theme as I laid it out. So this man offers this in a short simple paragraph, and here nobody offers evidence of comprehension. I have no idea whether you guys followed the plot.

    Here's his comment
    Shawn" Scientists study Biology and Physics they are discovering about Creation and it's origin this entity is very complex there's a large amount of energy that keeps everything in order
    "Shawn" I Apologize for being on y'all site I have a disability short-term memory I love to read just slow but did i get close to what y'all are discussing"

    To which I replied
    " Please, nothing to apologize for. You're welcome to read and comment here. And your disability isn't slowing you down much. Your summation is good, except that scientists are not studying the similarities between physics and biology. However we are, and I think to good effect"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I would suggest you do some science: produce a mathematical model, some testable (ie quantitative - which is why a mathematical model is required) predictions, and then show how well those predictions match observations.
    And you will have me fashion and place this where, while my thread remains closed?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,992
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    And you will have me fashion and place this where, while my thread remains closed?
    After you get your math and models in order, you can petition the Moderators to re-open the thread based on your preparedness.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    7,310
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    ...Their evolutionary mechanisms were pretty nebulous, and if you think mine are less than very specific, then you might benefit another read.
    This statement is so wrong that I am having trouble working out how to reply to it. To me it looks like it is pretty much the equivalent of someone pointing at a tree and telling everyone that it is a pickup truck. I genuinely don't know what to say. Because nothing you communicated was specific or well defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    ...An appropriate response to my discussion would be, "why Darwinian mechanisms can or cannot work within the scenario as I set them out?" Or alternatively "why my scenario doesnt stand against observations?". So little to expect, yet I receive nothing resembling.
    Because you gave no detail. Hard to argue against magic, because you can just add more magic to fix the problem. That's why we like well defined models in physics.

    Anyway. We run the risk of rehashing the arguments from your thread here and this is not the place for it. You have your answer - the mods felt you were engaging in speculation. Everyone who responded in that thread asked for you to provide a scientific frame work (hypotheses, predictions, tests) and you responded with more handwavium. Case closed, really.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    After you get your math and models in order, you can petition the Moderators to re-open the thread based on your preparedness.
    "Math" to represent a Darwinian model that is concerned with evolved physical structures and processes?

    Have you read the thread?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    This statement is so wrong that I am having trouble working out how to reply to it.
    Or maybe you just dont comprehend it, and then assume thats because theirs nothing solid to comprehend. This could be on you

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    31,430
    Could be. Probably isn't. No, I haven't read the thread, but I've read enough ATM to be quite familiar with that claim, that the people in the discussion just don't understand the OP's brilliance.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    You might as well ask why fusion is so badly tuned that it doesn't make brown dwarf stars ignite.
    Brown dwarf stars are stable within the regard of gravitational pressure. However larger stars that would collapse under gravity happen to generate the necessary heat via fusion. Thats the whole point which your statement completely disregards. Its like you didnt understand the point at all.

    Its like I said "maybe you just dont comprehend it, and then assume thats because theres nothing solid to comprehend. This could be on you"
    Last edited by Presocratics; 2020-May-01 at 03:42 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Could be. Probably isn't. No, I haven't read the thread, but I've read enough ATM to be quite familiar with that claim, that the people in the discussion just don't understand the OP's brilliance.
    And you think im a cliche while you're stating that haha lol

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    Or maybe you just dont comprehend it, and then assume thats because theirs nothing solid to comprehend. This could be on you
    ...and this is how many ATM proponents get infracted, suspended, and sometimes banned. Be polite. If you wish to participate in the ATM forum, it is your responsibility to communicate your ideas effectively. Blaming your audience for a purported inability to understand is both insulting and intellectually lazy.
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    To tease out possibilities requires a willingness to ask "what if?" Did anybody jump through this hoop and glimpse a method concerning my thread?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    That is a fair counter to Shaula's assertion that my theme possesses no coherent meaning. Perhaps this is not his field

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    13,468
    Why did you post your claims?
    Forum Rules►  ◄FAQ►  ◄ATM Forum Advice►  ◄Conspiracy Advice
    Click http://cosmoquest.org/forum/images/buttons/report-40b.png to report a post (even this one) to the moderation team.


    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,992
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    "Math" to represent a Darwinian model that is concerned with evolved physical structures and processes?
    Real biologists do use math in their models of evolution. Physicists who study physical structures and processes definitely do.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    106
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Real biologists do use math in their models of evolution. Physicists who study physical structures and processes definitely do.
    Yes thats fair. However, there are broad aspects of biological evolution that are serviced by description of their circumstances of resources and habitat. So my post focuses on the theme of evolved structures and processes optimized for exploiting an energy resource. Then using that as a comparative.

    So somebody comes in demanding math. for what relevance? What are we talking about this for?

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    7,310
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    That is a fair counter to Shaula's assertion that my theme possesses no coherent meaning. Perhaps this is not his field
    Both here and in the thread you have chosen to ignore the majority of what I have said (something I've told you before I rather dislike) and instead question my knowledge and comprehension - I see no value in further engagement on this. If you cannot keep a discussion civil and focused on the topic rather than the participants then I'm not minded to carry it on.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    37,992
    Quote Originally Posted by Presocratics View Post
    So somebody comes in demanding math. for what relevance? What are we talking about this for?
    Because this is a science forum. Mathematics is a vital part of scientific modeling, data, and theory. Without showing the math, your understanding of the mainstream topic will not be given much validity by real scientists.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    The beautiful north coast (Ohio)
    Posts
    49,982
    And this thread is closed

    Presocratics, Feedback is not for further debating your ATM idea and it is certainly not for questioning the abilities of other members. Our ATM forum has very strict rules and requirements as to what is required of advocates who present their non-mainstream ideas. They are explained in the stickies in ATM, and they were explained to you in your thread (and past threads). And any examination of other threads in ATM would have shown the same requirements.

    In spite of warnings, you failed to meet those requirements. You had your chance to present your idea and now its done.

    If at some point in the future you have further developed your idea, for example with mathematics or actual physical tests or evidence, you may ask permission to represent your idea. Do not do so without first asking for that permission.

    If these requirements are too restrictive for your speculations... well, its a big Internet.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •