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Thread: The COVID-19 Discussion Thread (OTB)

  1. #331
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    One of the local TV news was interviewing an ice cream shop owner. She has a store policy that customers must wear a mask in the store, even though Ohio isn't currently requiring it for customers (they do for staff). She had posted on Facebook, asking people not to yell at and curse out her teenaged employees when they remind people about the store policy. Apparently some people have been so nasty about it that employees have been brought to tears.

    During this interview, which was just outside the store, some "gentleman" comes up to the owner and starts arguing with her (more like ranting at her) that it is a violation of his freedom and a violation of the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act - which it isn't a violation of)..

    Whatever you think about wearing a mask, why would you yell at some poor 16 year old just working some job for the summer, for enforcing something they had nothing to do with.

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  2. #332
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    The COVID-19 Discussion Thread (OTB)

    Iíve worked in retail, and it is amazing how many people think the kid at the cash register runs the entire company, including the supply line.


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  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    I’ve worked in retail, and it is amazing how many people think the kid at the cash register runs the entire company, including the supply line.
    I think it's a power and dominance thing, mainly--bullying, in other words. It doesn't really matter what the person's responsibilities are--the object of the exercise is just to spoil someone else's day.
    I've lost count of the number of times the shouty people giving my more junior colleagues a hard time have transformed into sweetly reasonable people, just as soon as they have to have the same conversation with a tall, broad, scowling middle-aged man who leans gently towards them. Gad, I despise those people.

    Grant Hutchison

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    The mask I wear, and indeed the masks a lot of people I see wearing, also covers the sides of my face.
    I think it's a little difficult to understand without a picture of the type of mask you wear. I wear masks that look like the one in the first photo in this article:

    https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japa...urgical-masks/

    My understanding is that with those masks, droplets can escape through the sides of the mask.

    At about 5:00 in this video, there is a simulation done on a supercomputer about how air spreads with no mask, a mask which has gaps between the skin and mask, and one with no gaps. The top is coughing and the bottom is speaking.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6EbAO3nLy8
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  5. #335
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    More than 50,000 new cases in the USA yesterday, led by Texas which is in turn led by Harris County (Houston). Stay safe, Jim.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  6. #336
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    Well, if you haven’t heard, and to no surprise to me, California has backtracked on opening as the infection numbers went up. No stay-at-home order right now but a lot of counties have had to close up again on bars, dine-in restaurants, hair salons and so forth, which were already fairly restricted with allowing, I think, only about a quarter of regular occupancy. There’s good evidence that a lot of people ignored recommendations to maintain social distancing in bars and so on, basically taking the partial reopening as license to go back to pre-pandemic normal. Also there were indications a good number of businesses were playing fast and loose with the specific requirements, partly because unlike food safety inspectors, there was no established government system to do general business inspection for pandemic rules. Apparently that’s being changed now.

    My county is one of those going back to more restrictions, though the counties in worst condition are in Southern California. It won’t affect me much because I have had no intention of going crazy ignoring social distancing until either chances of infection go way down or there are effective treatments or I’ve been vaccinated.

    It is sad, because we were one of the states to take this seriously fairly early and we were doing reasonably well. It shows you really can’t let your guard down with this disease.

    My street typically has a 4th of July get together which I sometimes go to and they were planning on a limited one this year, but recommendations are now to have no get togethers where you can’t keep distancing and no sharing of food. Obviously, I will be staying home.

    Also, the big fireworks displays are probably being called off because they pretty much guarantee large gatherings of people.

    So this may be the quietest 4th of July I’ve ever witnessed in civilization. (Though I fully expect to hear plenty of loud illegal fireworks - between safety and fire concerns, anything that flies or explodes is always illegal here but people get them from other states or reservations).

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  7. #337
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    My wife and I are planning to visit Europe next June....if the EU will let us in. Right now people departing from US soil are barred from entering EU countries, and while the policy is being revisited every two weeks our expectations are rather low. I am OK with delaying some of the plans until next year but this specific trip requires some hefty up-front deposits and payments-in-full. Travel insurance may not help much since COVID is an escape clause for the underwriters.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I think it's a little difficult to understand without a picture of the type of mask you wear. I wear masks that look like the one in the first photo in this article:
    Mine are like this one; the pattern I use even has a place for installing a nose wire and is open at the sides so you can add additional filters. https://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Cloth-Face-Mask/

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    (Though I fully expect to hear plenty of loud illegal fireworks - between safety and fire concerns, anything that flies or explodes is always illegal here but people get them from other states or reservations).
    We already have that, and from what I've read, our area is far from the only one. A lot of places have had illegal fireworks going off for weeks.
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  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    We already have that, and from what I've read, our area is far from the only one. A lot of places have had illegal fireworks going off for weeks.
    Oh, here too. I hear the occasional firecracker go off, often pretty late, but not as often as I usually would by this time, and none of the shocking M-80 booms. I fully expect a lot of booms on the fourth, but not as many as usual.

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  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    I think it's a little difficult to understand without a picture of the type of mask you wear. I wear masks that look like the one in the first photo in this article:

    https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japa...urgical-masks/

    My understanding is that with those masks, droplets can escape through the sides of the mask.
    The problem with all masks is that, the higher the resistance to flow through the mask, the higher the pressure inside the mask during expiration, which lifts the edges of the mask away from the face. So for cloth masks, ramping up the barrier in front of the face causes leakage at the sides, top and bottom. Pinching the mask tight around the nose with a wire will prevent your spectacles fogging, but will promote leakage in other directions.
    So there's the paradox of people trying to improve the barrier in front of their faces (which will block large droplets by impact filtering), but at the expense of generating small droplet/aerosol leakage jets in other directions.
    While we have a good understanding of the nature of such leakage around medical masks controlled by stringent standards, we basically have no idea what goes on with the huge variety of improvised cloth face coverings currently in use. And we don't yet have a complete understanding of which droplets are the highest risk for Covid transmission, with various claims for and against significant aerosol transmission. So aerosol jets may be anything from entirely harmless to a major problem.
    The history of medicine is littered with the corpses of interventions that looked good based on theory and laboratory experiments, but turned out to be useless or actually harmful when rolled out into practice. So trying to get a clean signal for the public health effect of face coverings, teased out from all the other stuff happening at the same time, is both important and difficult. And the sheer variability in design of, use of and compliance with face covering is, I think, absolutely unprecedented in the history of public health interventions, which makes it all the harder to get a signal, and means that a lesson learned in one country may be largely irrelevant to what happens in another country.
    Three years from now entire books will be written on this topic, and I'll buy them. That doesn't make the life of public health organizations any easier at present, though.

    Grant Hutchison

  11. #341
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    More than 57,000 new cases in the USA, including over 10,000 in Florida, yesterday. And we still have idiots, including elected officials, proclaiming it not to be a problem. Masks violate their freedom. That's freedumb.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    More than 57,000 new cases in the USA, including over 10,000 in Florida, yesterday. And we still have idiots, including elected officials, proclaiming it not to be a problem. Masks violate their freedom. That's freedumb.
    Many people seem to have forgotten that rights come with responsibilities.

    Interestingly, the governor of Texas, who had been preventing local jurisdictions from requiring masks has issued a mask-wear order.


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  13. #343
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    We felt like getting out of the house and it's a very nice day, so we went for a drive around the area including Fort Worden State Park. We've been visiting that park for at least 40 years. In all that time I have never seen so many people there as today, unless there was some sort of special event. I spotted maybe two in masks. At least they weren't in large groups.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    We felt like getting out of the house and it's a very nice day, so we went for a drive around the area including Fort Worden State Park. We've been visiting that park for at least 40 years. In all that time I have never seen so many people there as today, unless there was some sort of special event. I spotted maybe two in masks. At least they weren't in large groups.
    Of course I am saying this is a complete non-expert, but it does seem to me that a lot of the transmission takes place in poorly ventilated places where people are in close or prolonged contact, and being outside seems fairly safe as long as you are not really close to other people. I personally (and a lot of other people here do the same) tend to leave my mask off when I'm just walking around the neighborhood where there aren't many people, and then put it on when I get to a store or on the train or whatever.
    As above, so below

  15. #345
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    It seems that I was a bit sanguine about the outbreak in the state of Victoria. It has proven difficult to get under control and yesterday they recorded the most new daily cases since the pandemic began - 127. A number of districts in the capital city, Melbourne, have had restrictions on movement put in place and 6 "Social Housing" apartment blocks have been placed into complete lockdown. The state borders are now basically closed.

    Again, these figures in a city of about 5 Million people may seem low by some International comparisons. However the rest of Australia is only seeing new active cases in returning residents locked in Quarantine with little or no community spread so this state is a complete outlier.

  16. #346
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    It seems that I was a bit sanguine about the outbreak in the state of Victoria. It has proven difficult to get under control and yesterday they recorded the most new daily cases since the pandemic began - 127. A number of districts in the capital city, Melbourne, have had restrictions on movement put in place and 6 "Social Housing" apartment blocks have been placed into complete lockdown. The state borders are now basically closed.

    Again, these figures in a city of about 5 Million people may seem low by some International comparisons. However the rest of Australia is only seeing new active cases in returning residents locked in Quarantine with little or no community spread so this state is a complete outlier. Australia currently has 563 cases and Victoria has 543 of them with most of the other live cases being in Qaranantine.

  17. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozduck View Post
    It seems that I was a bit sanguine about the outbreak in the state of Victoria. It has proven difficult to get under control and yesterday they recorded the most new daily cases since the pandemic began - 127. A number of districts in the capital city, Melbourne, have had restrictions on movement put in place and 6 "Social Housing" apartment blocks have been placed into complete lockdown. The state borders are now basically closed.

    Again, these figures in a city of about 5 Million people may seem low by some International comparisons. However the rest of Australia is only seeing new active cases in returning residents locked in Quarantine with little or no community spread so this state is a complete outlier.
    It seems that what you are experiencing there is similar to what we are seeing in other places in this region. In Japan we have also seen a rise in cases in Tokyo and the surrounding prefectures, but there are really no cases outside. And in Korea there are cases in Seoul, and in China in Beijing. It is the large and active cities that see these rises, and I think a lot of it here, as well as in Australia, is clusters. And it is really hard to stamp out because there is the long latent period. So the distancing and stuff may have to be kept in place, maybe with adjustments to keep the cases from exploding, at least until a vaccine is developed.
    As above, so below

  18. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    It seems that what you are experiencing there is similar to what we are seeing in other places in this region. In Japan we have also seen a rise in cases in Tokyo and the surrounding prefectures, but there are really no cases outside. And in Korea there are cases in Seoul, and in China in Beijing. It is the large and active cities that see these rises, and I think a lot of it here, as well as in Australia, is clusters. And it is really hard to stamp out because there is the long latent period. So the distancing and stuff may have to be kept in place, maybe with adjustments to keep the cases from exploding, at least until a vaccine is developed.
    Yes, I think you are correct. Melbourne has some of the most densely populated suburbs areas in Australia's big cities. And while all of the Capital Cities have a big percentage of migrants I believe that it has the most and also the largest percentage of those from non-English speaking countries. Also a lot of these people are from countries with a well earned mistrust of governments. This is believed to have cause some problems with the "message" about Covid-19.

  19. #349
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    Why can't Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy recruit players from people who have been in quarantine and are known to not be infected?

  20. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Of course I am saying this is a complete non-expert, but it does seem to me that a lot of the transmission takes place in poorly ventilated places where people are in close or prolonged contact, and being outside seems fairly safe as long as you are not really close to other people. I personally (and a lot of other people here do the same) tend to leave my mask off when I'm just walking around the neighborhood where there aren't many people, and then put it on when I get to a store or on the train or whatever.
    That describes my behavior. If I'm just walking around the neighborhood, or on trail in a nearby park, I don't wear a mask, but I make sure I stay 6 feet (2 meters) away from anyone but my wife, and don't even linger for any period of time at 6 feet away. Same when I'm driving in my car, in my house, or in my yard; I don't wear a mask. But, other than those specific circumstances, I wear a mask when I'm out and about.

    I am also still mostly staying home; I've only been at work (in the facility, not at home) twice in over four months, we've only eaten out at a restaurant once in that period of time (and that was outdoors, with masks except when actually eating), and my hair is to the point that I could easily do a Jerry Garcia impression. I actually have some tasks I need to get done (haircut, get new glasses, go to the dentist) that I was thinking about doing at the end of May, when things were looking better in Ohio, but I'm now back to waiting on those.
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  21. #351
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    I hope everyone has seen this already but if not, hand sanitizer under a number of labels contains methanol from a Mexican company named Eskbiochem SA de CV. Not just a little contaminant either, but pure or mostly methanol. The FDA has just added more label names to the list, and says some people (including kids) have died from it, been blinded, or had other effects. I’m not sure what the Mexican legal environment is like, but I hope these guys get sued silly and higher-ups face criminal charges. Here is a link:

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020...ren-fda-warns/

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  22. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    I hope everyone has seen this already but if not, hand sanitizer under a number of labels contains methanol from a Mexican company named Eskbiochem SA de CV. Not just a little contaminant either, but pure or mostly methanol. The FDA has just added more label names to the list, and says some people (including kids) have died from it, been blinded, or had other effects. Iím not sure what the Mexican legal environment is like, but I hope these guys get sued silly and higher-ups face criminal charges. Here is a link:

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020...ren-fda-warns/
    In the article it says:

    ďAdults and children in the United States have been blinded, hospitalized, and, in some cases, even died after drinking hand sanitizers contaminated with the extremely toxic alcohol methanol, the Food and Drug Administration reports.Ē

    Drinking hand sanitizers? Why are people drinking it? Methanol is a normal ingredient of hand sanitizers, because itís something youíre supposed to wipe your hands with. Itís not something youíre supposed to drink.
    As above, so below

  23. #353
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    Sorry, I take take that back. Apparently methanol is no longer a normal ingredient.
    As above, so below

  24. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Drinking hand sanitizers? Why are people drinking it? Methanol is a normal ingredient of hand sanitizers, because it’s something you’re supposed to wipe your hands with. It’s not something you’re supposed to drink.

    I would expect primarily alcoholics looking for a source of alcohol (there has to be a high concentration of alcohol to be effective as a hand sanitizer) and young kids that don’t know any better and pour the stuff into their mouths.

    There are plenty of stories of alcoholics drinking mouthwash and other stuff you wouldn’t normally expect because alcohol (ethanol) is a component.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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  25. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Sorry, I take take that back. Apparently methanol is no longer a normal ingredient.
    I missed that part. I don’t believe methanol was ever a normal component of hand sanitizers, unless perhaps as a minute contaminant in the ethanol. Any significant amount of methanol can be dangerous even on skin. This is highly concentrated methanol with little or no ethanol. The dangerous hand sanitizer is mostly methanol with water, aloe vera and so forth.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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  26. #356
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    Iíd heard about people drinking hand sanitizer from public restrooms long before the COVID outbreak. Addiction is a powerful thing.

    We recently spotted several mystery-brand hand sanitizers at the grocery store. We picked the stuff made in Georgia (US) figuring that a state known for moonshine should be able to get this right.


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  27. #357
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    I suppose isopropyl alcohol is also used in hand sanitizer, and that is also very dangerous if ingested, but not a concern if used externally. I wonder though if that is commonly used in hand sanitizer? I have read it tastes horrible. But alcoholics have gotten sick on it.

    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is hard to verify their authenticity." ó Abraham Lincoln

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  28. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    There are plenty of stories of alcoholics drinking mouthwash and other stuff you wouldn’t normally expect because alcohol (ethanol) is a component.
    Tabitha King once accused Stephen of drinking the Lysol, which he denied. He said he drank the Scope, for that zesty taste of mint.
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    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  29. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    Tabitha King once accused Stephen of drinking the Lysol, which he denied. He said he drank the Scope, for that zesty taste of mint.
    Say what you will about King, he's got a pretty good sense of humor.

    I remember an episode of "Family Ties" with a young Tom Hanks playing a character with an alcohol addiction. As I recall, in one scene his addiction drove him to drink a bottle of vanilla extract.
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    This fellow I knew years ago, who had spent about 10 years in the US Navy, told multiple stories about guys drinking vanilla extract, aftershave, mouth wash, and various other things, to get some alcohol.
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