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Thread: Star Trek Voyager revisited

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Yes, so I've heard. I am looking forward to seeing where they go with Seven, given how Janeway set has set the tone for their early interactions.

    I did notice a slight retcon: In "Q Who?" Q throws the Enterprise - and humans - into the path of the Borg well before they would have otherwise (I don't recall if it is the Delta Quadrant or not). But in "Scorpion" we learn that Annika Hansen and family basically shot off toward the Delta Quadrant 20 years prior (circa 2354) and she must be one of the first humans assimilated by the Borg. But that means that the Borg were already well aware of humans before Q flung the Enterprise there (wherever) in 2365.

    CJSF
    I've wondered about that too. My interpretation is that the Borg were at least aware of humans by the time of "Q Who?", but for the most part hadn't gotten to the Alpha Quadrant yet. I suspect also that the earlier encounters were with tiny groups like the Hansen family, and not directly with the Federation / Star Fleet. By 2365, they were that much closer to Federation space, and after the encounter with the Enterprise and this assessment of the Federation capabilities, they thought that it was time to make a movie.

    I also can completely believe that over the course of the years and various Star Trek shows, that continuity wasn't maintained very well, and either deliberately or accidentally, the writers messed it up.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    I've wondered about that too. My interpretation is that the Borg were at least aware of humans by the time of "Q Who?", but for the most part hadn't gotten to the Alpha Quadrant yet. I suspect also that the earlier encounters were with tiny groups like the Hansen family, and not directly with the Federation / Star Fleet. By 2365, they were that much closer to Federation space, and after the encounter with the Enterprise and this assessment of the Federation capabilities, they thought that it was time to make a movie.

    I also can completely believe that over the course of the years and various Star Trek shows, that continuity wasn't maintained very well, and either deliberately or accidentally, the writers messed it up.
    That's a reasonable retcon/interpretation, but I always thought the implication was supposed to be that the Borg had no idea who the Federation was or where they were located until Q essentially changed the timeline. But I can see what you mean, and of course the "real" reason is that through most of the Trek iterations, a closely followed story arc was not primary (as was the case for almost all shows in that timeframe).

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    ... after the encounter with the Enterprise and this assessment of the Federation capabilities, they thought that it was time to make a movie. ...
    Which would explain ST:First Contact, right?
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Originally Posted by Swift
    ... after the encounter with the Enterprise and this assessment of the Federation capabilities, they thought that it was time to make a movie. ...
    Which would explain ST:First Contact, right?
    I'm apparently at my funniest when I'm not even trying. Maybe I should write movie scripts.

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    Which would explain ST:First Contact, right?
    Hahaha! I totally glossed right over that!

    But, I did catch myself saying to my wife after the away team beamed over to the Borg cube that Seven was on, "Hey, why isn't there a Borg queen involved?" Then realizing she hadn't been invented yet.

    CJSF
    Last edited by CJSF; 2019-Sep-26 at 06:21 PM. Reason: over comma'ing
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    Yes, so I've heard. I am looking forward to seeing where they go with Seven, given how Janeway set has set the tone for their early interactions.
    It is pretty good until Braga decided to use it to settle a score with Beltran.

    Keep in mind while watching what is about to unfold the miserly behaviour of Mulgrew towards Ryan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glom View Post
    It is pretty good until Braga decided to use it to settle a score with Beltran.

    Keep in mind while watching what is about to unfold the miserly behaviour of Mulgrew towards Ryan.
    Why do you insist? I don't mind a little of the backstories and how they motivate on-screen performances, but I don't want to 1) "play" sides or 2) start thinking about the sets and actors to the point that I won't suspend disbelief.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glom View Post
    It is pretty good until Braga decided to use it to settle a score with Beltran.
    What does this even mean?

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    I did notice a slight retcon: In "Q Who?" Q throws the Enterprise - and humans - into the path of the Borg well before they would have otherwise (I don't recall if it is the Delta Quadrant or not). But in "Scorpion" we learn that Annika Hansen and family basically shot off toward the Delta Quadrant 20 years prior (circa 2354) and she must be one of the first humans assimilated by the Borg. But that means that the Borg were already well aware of humans before Q flung the Enterprise there (wherever) in 2365.
    From the TNG first season finale, "The Neutral Zone", at a Federation outpost:
    DATA: Captain, there is nothing left of Outpost Delta Zero Five.
    LAFORGE: Must have been one hell of an explosion.
    DATA: Sensors indicate no evidence of conventional attack.
    PICARD: Can you determine what happened?
    WORF: The outpost was not just destroyed, it's as though some great force just scooped it off the face of the planet.
    And later, approaching another outpost:
    LAFORGE: We are approaching Tarod Nine.
    DATA: The condition is identical, Captain.
    WORF: Everyone and everything is gone.
    From "Q Who?", exploring the part of the galaxy Q has thrown them into, moments before encountering the Borg:
    DATA: There is a system of roads on this planet, which indicates a highly industrialised civilisation. But where there should be cities there are only great rips in the surface.
    WORF: It is as though some great force just scooped all the machine elements off the face of the planet.
    DATA: It is identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone.
    So it was implicit right from the beginning that "Q Who?" was not the first interaction between the Federation and the Borg. No retcon required.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    From the TNG first season finale, "The Neutral Zone", at a Federation outpost:


    And later, approaching another outpost:


    From "Q Who?", exploring the part of the galaxy Q has thrown them into, moments before encountering the Borg:


    So it was implicit right from the beginning that "Q Who?" was not the first interaction between the Federation and the Borg. No retcon required.
    Ah. I remember "The Neutral Zone" and that later it was compared to Borg attacks, but I hadn't realized it was at least partially intentional. It seems that the writers' strike and a couple of other things got it the way of the production crew and writers taking it more directly that way, but it seems to make sense now. Though how the Hansens fit in still isn't clear. And it makes you wonder if Q knew (well, they are allegedly omniscient) and if so, he didn't let on to the crew.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  11. #41
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    So now we enter the "eye candy" phase of Voyager. Jeri Ryan was specifically chosen and Seven of Nine's character was designed for sex appeal.
    I had a good laugh when a friend referred to her as "7 & 8 of 9"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    I had a good laugh when a friend referred to her as "7 & 8 of 9"
    Why? Because she's really tall? Or her screen presence?

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  13. #43
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    Aww come on now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    I had a good laugh when a friend referred to her as "7 & 8 of 9"
    Well, the Doc did constantly say he needed to check her implants...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Well, the Doc did constantly say he needed to check her implants...
    Yes, the good doctor tried his technologically best to restore her to original human form, but he had to leave some Borg augmentations in place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacedude View Post
    Yes, the good doctor tried his technologically best to restore her to original human form, but he had to leave some Borg augmentations in place.
    Sure, let's go with that explanation.
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    If we keep this up may we may need to add a walking on eggshells emoji

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    We watched the 2 part "Year of Hell" this weekend, and I was left confused and a little disappointed. I kept asking the TV, "Why don't they remember what Kes told them?" They subtly referred to it when Seven matched the "temporal variance" of the temporal torpedo before it detonated (and blinded Tuvok), but after the events in "Before and After" I thought it was clear that she told them at least some important facts she remembered from her experiences. She admonished them to watch out for the Krenim.

    But worse in some ways was the resolution. Since we know further adventures await the crew and ship (even upon the original airing, as these episodes were mid-season), "obviously" the ship and crew aren't going to be destroyed. But it always seems a bit of a cop out when the ship gets destroyed and *bam* timeline restored and it's all never happened or no one remembers. There was one nice touch though. As the ship is getting more and more heavily damaged, Torres mentions a couple of times the status of the starboard nacelle. I think Paris (or maybe Kim?) mention the pylon buckling or something. Anyway - when Janeway rams the timeship, as Voyager is crumpling the starboard pylon breaks free from the stress of the collision, as one might expect from the damage referred to, previously.

    And then we most recently watched another "mind rape" but they really didn't mean it episode, in "Random Thoughts".

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  19. #49
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    Oh, and a side note from an earlier episode. The shuttle "Sacajawea" was obviously put in there to honor an important historical woman. But the person they (most likely) mean, Lewis and Clark's guide and translator, pronounced her name (and it is properly rendered as) "Sacagawea" with a hard "g". This is evident from each of the men's journals and what her name was translated as. There was a "Sacajawea" (or a grave, perhaps) found years later when people retraced the expedition's steps, but she was not the same woman at all.

    Also, they must be running out of shuttles by now!

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  20. #50
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    The shuttle issue became a running joke among viewers. But they do sort of settle it late in the show.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    Oh boy. Another aubdution/watching aliens/dream episode... The dream-within-a-dream plot hack..er twist.. was anticipated quite early. But it had its tense moments. My bigger beef is with the end (and this episode is far from unique or unusual in this regard). This race of sleeping aliens violated the crew in the/a worst way, and Chakotay has to resort to a threat of annihilation to save everyone. But then what? Did the aliens get severely admonished? Was there any sort of negotiation? Did Voyager set up warning beacons outside their space? How often in Trek do we have these resolutions and the important details or ramifications are left hanging? I've found myself more than once saying, "just drop a torpedo or two on 'em for good measure!"

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  22. #52
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    As I've been a bit "complainy" about the last few episodes I've described, I should say I quite liked "Mortal Coil". Poor Neelix. I didn't have a near-death experience, but I think many of us who grew up in devout families can identify a bit with him on losing one's faith and being confused and angry (though for many of us the resolution takes more than a day or two!). I thought the change in him was well acted, even if Chakotay's "pep talk" was a little trite.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


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  23. #53
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    A lot of Voyager has a revolving door of writing quality, and consistency and follow through are not always observed; Sometimes it looks as if they didn't even read their own story notes or general Star Trek bibles. (And don't get me started on Enterprise!)

    Granted, that universe has a long and convoluted history. But continuity is a basic aspect of good storytelling. If writers on a long series aren't willing to do at least some checking, they may lack the temperament for the job, and could always go do commercials or technical manuals.
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    The writing seems to be quite uneven here at the end of Season 4. I couldn't quite put my finger on what was wrong with the message of "Living Witness". Something seemed reversed about it. I thought it was also a sneaky way to get Voyager to have its Mirror Universe episode, indirectly. Because for some unfathomable reason, the creators of these shows by-god have to have their Mirror Universe episodes!! [Side note: I HATE MIRROR UNIVERSE EPISODES!]

    The "Demon" episode presents some serious potential future issues, too. LOTS of expanded universe fodder there. I find it curious that the dupes all had uniforms on. I guess since they are all themselves in their minds eye, they'd still maybe feel weird being naked in front of crewmates. But still, in any case you now have an entire copy of the Voyager crew on this planet. They tried to tie it up by giving the dupes some strong affinity for the planet itself, but I see this innovative Starfleet crew finding a way to want to explore off this world and maybe even head "home" - or home away from home. Issues. I see issues!

    Meanwhile, Seventeen-year-old of Nine's character is developing.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


    lonelybirder.org

  26. #56
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    Slightly off-topic, but I see that Jeri Ryan is going to make an appearance (as Seven of Nine) in CBS' new "Picard" series.
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  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJSF View Post
    ... [Side note: I HATE MIRROR UNIVERSE EPISODES!] ...
    CJSF
    Oh gosh yes. (Worse than time travel episodes, for me, and I hate those.)

    This has made Discovery hard for me to really like. Mirror Universe characters are such a large part of it. How've you found it?
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  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Oh gosh yes. (Worse than time travel episodes, for me, and I hate those.)

    This has made Discovery hard for me to really like. Mirror Universe characters are such a large part of it. How've you found it?
    I can't manage to support another streaming service, so I've not started watching Discovery (though Season 1 is now available elsewhere). Knowing this makes me even less apt to start watching.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


    lonelybirder.org

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    Oh gosh yes. (Worse than time travel episodes, for me, and I hate those.)

    This has made Discovery hard for me to really like. Mirror Universe characters are such a large part of it. How've you found it?
    Yes and yes. Generally hate time travel and Mirror Universe Star Trek. And I hate Q episodes.
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  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Yes and yes. Generally hate time travel and Mirror Universe Star Trek. And I hate Q episodes.
    Q episodes were pretty good at first (maybe they just played better to teen/young adult me), but after a while it was ridiculous, and there was no reason at all to have Q in Voyager except to tie in to TNG. But it was such a kludge. Time travel episodes are hit and miss with me. I enjoyed "Time's Arrow" in TNG, but Voyager's "Future's End" was ridiculous. And even "novel" ways of doing it - like the WWII battle in "The Killing Game" were bad, IMO.

    CJSF
    "Flipping this one final switch I'm effectively ensuring that I will be
    Overcoming all resistance long after my remains have been
    Vaporized with extreme prejudice and shot into outer space.

    I'll be haunting you."

    -They Might Be Giants, "I'll Be Haunting You"


    lonelybirder.org

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