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Thread: How long until we colonize the moon (continued)

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    so are you saying radiation is worse on Mars?
    No.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Same is true for Mars. We have some experience - about 25 man days - on the Moon but none for Mars. Only by staying longer and living there will we able to answer questions like - is it viable working environment?
    Going back to Lunar colonization, the conditions on the Moon are hard all by themselves. Only long term experience of living on the surface will tell us what we need to know. And in the very long term, we'll have to learn about childhood development in a Lunar environment by direct observation... which means, some kids might have very difficult lives there if the situation proves incompatible with healthy growth. It's not going to be an easy decision for some parents, but given human nature it's going to happen someday if people stay on the Moon long enough. Let's hope for the best outcome in that case.

    If the Moon does not turn out to be a suitable site for human colonization, orbital habitats might be set in LLO with residents tele-operating robots on the surface. The Moon itself would be relegated to being an industrial park, with no permanent inhabitants.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Going back to Lunar colonization, the conditions on the Moon are hard all by themselves. Only long term experience of living on the surface will tell us what we need to know. And in the very long term, we'll have to learn about childhood development in a Lunar environment by direct observation... which means, some kids might have very difficult lives there if the situation proves incompatible with healthy growth. It's not going to be an easy decision for some parents, but given human nature it's going to happen someday if people stay on the Moon long enough. Let's hope for the best outcome in that case.

    If the Moon does not turn out to be a suitable site for human colonization, orbital habitats might be set in LLO with residents tele-operating robots on the surface. The Moon itself would be relegated to being an industrial park, with no permanent inhabitants.
    I see the Moon very much as the Antarctic now in the next 40 to 100 years. Than it will depend on technology, if some people will start calling it home and having families..
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  4. #154
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    Lunar "gold rush" for limited resources could create conflict on the ground if we don't act now – says new research. So far, much of the debate around exploring and mining the Moon has focused on tensions in space between state agencies and the private sector. But as we see it, the pressing challenge arises from limited strategic resources. Important sites for science are also important for infrastructure construction by state agencies or commercial users. Such sites include "peaks of eternal light" (where there is almost constant sunlight, and hence access to power), and continually shaded craters at the polar regions, where there's water ice. Each is rare, and the combination of the two—ice on the crater floor and a narrow peak of eternal light on the crater rim—is a prized target for different players. But they occur only in polar regions, rather than at the equatorial sites targeted by the Apollo programme in the 1960s and 1970s.

    How then do we deal with the problem? The Outer Space Treaty (1967) holds that "the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind." States do not get to claim parts of the Moon as property, but they can still use them. Where this leaves disputes and extraction by private companies is unclear. Proposed successors to the treatment, such as the Moon Agreement (1979), are seen as too restrictive, requiring a formal framework of laws and an ambitious international regulatory regime. The agreement has failed to gain support among key players, including the US, Russia and China. More recent steps, such as the Artemis Accords – a set of guidelines surrounding the Artemis Program for crewed exploration of the Moon—are perceived as heavily tied to the US programme.In the worst case, this lack of framework could lead to heightened tensions on Earth.

    https://phys.org/news/2020-12-lunar-...ound-dont.html
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    I see the Moon very much as the Antarctic now in the next 40 to 100 years. Than it will depend on technology, if some people will start calling it home and having families..
    The Antarctica treaty ends 2048, already it causes concern that the consensus might break down before then. The question of who polices international treaties is fraught.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    The Antarctica treaty ends 2048, already it causes concern that the consensus might break down before then. The question of who polices international treaties is fraught.
    Unlike other countries (that have scientific bases there), Argentina already has communities living there. According to the last Argentine national census, in October 2010 (winter) there were 230 inhabitants (including 9 families and 16 children) at the six permanent bases: 75 at Marambio, 66 at Esperanza, 33 at Jubany, 20 at San Martín, 19 at Belgrano II and 17 at Orcadas.[8]

    From WikipediA we have - "Argentine Antarctica (Spanish: Antártida Argentina or Sector Antártico Argentino)[4] is a sector of Antarctica claimed by Argentina as part of its national territory consisting of the Antarctic Peninsula and a triangular section extending to the South Pole, delimited by the 25° West and 74° West meridians and the 60° South parallel.[5] This region overlaps the British and Chilean claims in Antarctica. All all claims are suspended by the Antarctic Treaty System, of which Argentina is a founding signatory and permanent consulting member. The Antarctic Treaty Secretariat being based in Buenos Aires.[6]

    Administratively, Argentine Antarctica is a department of the province of Tierra del Fuego, Antarctica, and South Atlantic Islands. The provincial authorities reside in Ushuaia and the Governor annually designates his or her delegate for the Antarctica region. The "civil power" of any of the administrators extends no further than that nation's own bases. The South Orkney Islands are part of Islas del Atlántico Sur (South Atlantic Islands) Department, which include Falkland Islands and South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands (according to Argentine claim).[7]"
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  7. #157
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    So we effectively have already "colonized" Antarctica with permanent communities. Good to know. It rebuts a few specious comparisons.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So we effectively have already "colonized" Antarctica with permanent communities. Good to know. It rebuts a few specious comparisons.
    Hang on. Let’s leave the politics out. This “colony “ is part of a disputed territorial claim.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by profloater View Post
    Hang on. Let’s leave the politics out. This “colony “ is part of a disputed territorial claim.
    No politics. Colonization in the sense of an expanding population, as in biology.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    We've chosen to make it impossible for anyone to legally colonize Antarctica, so I don't really see the relevance. Nor do I see reason to expect the moon to have colonies before Mars does.
    Have we? I didn’t know there was something forbidding people from living there, just that nobody does because it’s impractical and mining is forbidden. Is there a ban on people living there outside of scientific stations?


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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Have we? I didn’t know there was something forbidding people from living there, just that nobody does because it’s impractical and mining is forbidden. Is there a ban on people living there outside of scientific stations?
    Forbidding people from living off the land is a pretty effective way of forbidding colonization.

  12. #162
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    In any case. Mining the Moon is not (currently) illegal.

    But could a human settlement really exist using only Lunar resources? I'm skeptical. You'd need at least a good carbonaceous asteroid to draw from.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
    Forbidding people from living off the land is a pretty effective way of forbidding colonization.
    My understanding is that mining is not the only way to live off the land. I am personally living in a major settlement, and as far as I know, nobody is doing mining. Maybe it is that there is no good reason to live in Antarctica except for mining.


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  14. #164
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    I think you will find science and tourism is allowed on Antarctica, including permanent bases of several nations where people over winter. So living there is obviously allowed but colonisation is prohibited. The idea is that while the signatories manage their bases on their segments, nobody owns it. It is managed under the treaty by IAATO. The largest base is run by the USA at the pole and several bases are on islands adjacent to the mainland. People come and go, but none can claim residence, because of the treaty. If mining were ever allowed, I doubt it would count as a colony for those legal reasons which are partly based on military neutrality. The changing geopolitics makes the deadline controversial.
    sicut vis videre esto
    When we realize that patterns don't exist in the universe, they are a template that we hold to the universe to make sense of it, it all makes a lot more sense.
    Originally Posted by Ken G

  15. #165
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    A Lunar civilization would be close enough (in delta-V terms) to the resources of some Earth-Grazers so as to render accessing those resources relatively simple.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

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    "One's trash, another's treasure: fertilizer made from urine could enable space agriculture"

    https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/O...lture_999.html

    In extreme environments, even the most ordinary tasks can seem like unsurmountable challenges. Because of such difficulties, humanity has, for the most part, settled on grounds that were favorable for harvesting crops, herding cattle, and building shelters. But as we seek to expand the limits of human exploration, both on earth and in space, the people pioneering this search will undoubtedly face conditions that, for all intents and purposes, are not conducive to human habitation.

    One of the foremost challenges facing any intended long-term settlement, be it in the Antarctic or on Mars (perhaps in the near future), is achieving some degree of autonomy, to enable isolated colonies to survive even in the event of a catastrophic failure in provisioning. And the key to achieving this autonomy is ensuring food sufficiency and self-sustenance.

    Unsurprisingly, therefore, space agricultural technology is one of the research topics currently being undertaken by the Research Center for Space Colony at Tokyo University of Science. The researchers here hope to spearhead the technological development for safe and sustainable space agriculture - with the aim of sustaining humans for a long time in an extremely closed environment such as a space station.
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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "One's trash, another's treasure: fertilizer made from urine could enable space agriculture"

    https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/O...lture_999.html
    Not to mention, making for sustainable agriculture here on Earth.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "One's trash, another's treasure: fertilizer made from urine could enable space agriculture"

    https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/O...lture_999.html
    I think that with the organization of successful flights and the creation of the first bases on the Moon, the problem of power supply and waste disposal will be solved. In addition, several countries are striving for this goal at once. In the world there are both mastodons in the field of space exploration, and many new companies have appeared. I recently came across https://dragonflyaerospace.com/ and it seems to me that it has prospects to compete. Competition is a direct path to progress.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Not to mention, making for sustainable agriculture here on Earth.
    It is used quite extensively in the east even now. It includes more than urine
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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    It is used quite extensively in the east even now. It includes more than urine
    Well, yes, but that's the raw material.

    In large scale agriculture petroleum based fertilizer is the rule.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  21. #171
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    An idea mentioned before, updated: NASA wants to build a lunar base by 2030. Could 3D printing with moon dust be the answer?

    https://www.cnn.com/style/article/3d...ntl/index.html

    https://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshal...-the-moon.html
    Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    It is used quite extensively in the east even now. It includes more than urine
    Potential
    Resource
    Offal
    XperiMent
    In
    Related
    Endeavors

  23. #173
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    Before we can colonize the moon we need to overcome one small problem - Luna dust.

    https://spacenews.com/dealing-with-d...-moon-dilemma/

    If the political, technical and budgetary stars align for NASA and its partners in coming years, the moon could be the go-to place as the century unfolds. Astronauts would again explore Earth’s celestial next-door neighbor, perhaps setting in motion future mining endeavors to extract ices likely lurking in sunlight-shy craters for processing into water, oxygen, and rocket propellant. Humans that “settle in” on the moon could well be a future prospect.

    The next chapter in the U.S. human exploration of the moon, the Artemis Project, will dispatch crews there for extended periods of time, building upon Apollo’s heritage. Between 1969 and the end of 1972, a dozen astronauts kicked up the powdery regolith, the topside dirt of the moon. But there’s one flash back message from the Apollo moonwalkers worth heeding: the place is a Disneyland of dust.

    During their landings, dust blown up into the thin lunar atmosphere impacted astronaut visibility. Once crews were out and about on the moon, the dust had deleterious effects on their spacesuits, helmets, equipment and instrumentation. Apollo expedition members could not escape tracking lunar material inside their lunar landers. After doffing their helmets and gloves, moonwalkers could feel the abrasive nature of the dust, even experiencing an “Apollo aroma” — a distinctive, odoriferous smell.
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  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by publiusr View Post
    Potential
    Resource
    Offal
    XperiMent
    In
    Related
    Endeavors
    PROX(M)IRE. I just now got that.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  25. #175
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    "Lunar gold rush could create conflict on the ground if we don't act now"

    https://www.moondaily.com/reports/Lu...earch_999.html

    When it comes to the Moon, everyone wants the same things. Not in the sense of having shared goals, but in the sense that all players target the same strategic sites - state agencies and the private sector alike. That's because, whether you want to do science or make money, you will need things such as water and light.

    Many countries and private companies have ambitious plans to explore or mine the Moon. This won't be at some remote point in time but soon - even in this decade. As Martin Elvis, Alanna Krolikowski and I set out in a recent paper, published in the Transactions of the Royal Society, this will spark tension on the ground unless we find ways to manage the situation imminently.

    So far, much of the debate around exploring and mining the Moon has focused on tensions in space between state agencies and the private sector. But as we see it, the pressing challenge arises from limited strategic resources.
    I am because we are
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  26. #176
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    The poles are the most likely places to provoke competition. Eternal Peaks and cold craters, preferably close together, will be the specific areas of interest. In the long range future we might establish a Lunar Space Elevator that splits to the poles.

    The Equator is probably the area of least value. Two full weeks of dark, and always dry.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  27. #177
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    "How to Get Water on the Moon"

    https://www.moondaily.com/reports/Ho..._Moon_999.html

    Given plans for future manned missions to the Moon - and interest in the potential for longer-term lunar habitation - the presence of water on the Moon is of critical importance. Studies over the last few decades have revealed water lurking on our satellite in numerous forms. But how does it get there?

    Lunar water has been found locked in ice form in the cold, permanently shadowed craters at the Moon's poles, and drifting in gas form in the very thin lunar atmosphere. In addition, we've discovered that water exists in trace amounts across the Moon's surface, bound to lunar minerals.

    But lunar water is more complicated than its mere presence or absence. The Moon is also thought to have a water cycle - water is continuously created on or delivered to the Moon's surface, and then destroyed on or removed from it.

    Understanding the driving processes in this cycle will enable us to best leverage the Moon's resources and deepen our insight into the physics that influences airless rocky bodies throughout our solar system and beyond.
    I am because we are
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  28. #178
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    Having got the water - fish anyone!!!

    https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/t...h-on-the-moon/

    The seabass eggs, all 200 of them, were settled in their module and ready to go. The ground crew had counted the eggs carefully, checked each for an embryo, and sealed them tightly within a curved dish filled precisely to the brim with seawater.

    The countdown, and then—ignition! For two full minutes, the precious eggs suffered a riotous shaking as the rocket’s engines exploded to life, followed by another eight minutes of heightened juddering as they ascended to the heavens. These embryonic fish were on their way to low Earth orbit. Next stop: the moon.

    Well, they haven’t actually left yet. But after a recent simulation designed to re-create the intense shaking of a typical takeoff, researchers in France found that the eggs survived the ordeal well. It’s a crucial discovery in the progress of the Lunar Hatch, a program that aims to determine whether astronauts could successfully rear fish on a future moon base.
    I am because we are
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  29. #179
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    Making rocket fuel out of lunar ice at the South Pole could involve some titantic engineering...

    Towers on the Moon: 1. Concrete.

    Sephora Ruppert, Amia Ross, Joost Vlassak, Martin Elvis

    The lunar South pole likely contains significant amounts of water in the permanently shadowed craters there. Extracting this water for life support at a lunar base or to make rocket fuel would take large amounts of power, of order Gigawatts. A natural place to obtain this power are the "Peaks of Eternal Light", that lie a few kilometers away on the crater rims and ridges above the permanently shadowed craters. The amount of solar power that could be captured depends on how tall a tower can be built to support the photovoltaic panels. The low gravity, lack of atmosphere, and quiet seismic environment of the Moon suggests that towers could be built much taller than on Earth. Here we look at the limits to building tall concrete towers on the Moon. We choose concrete as the capital cost of transporting large masses of iron or carbon fiber to the Moon is presently so expensive that profitable operation of a power plant is unlikely. Concrete instead can be manufactured in situ from the lunar regolith. We find that, with minimum wall thicknesses (20 cm), towers up to several kilometers tall are stable. The mass of concrete needed, however, grows rapidly with height, from ∼ 760 mt at 1 km to ∼ 4,100 mt at 2 km to ∼105 mt at 7 km and ∼106 mt at 17 km.

    https://arxiv.org/abs/2103.00612
    Do good work. —Virgil Ivan "Gus" Grissom

  30. #180
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    "One giant step: Moon race hots up"

    https://www.moondaily.com/reports/On...ts_up_999.html

    As Russia and China sign a deal for a shared lunar space station, we look at the new race to the Moon with Nokia even working with NASA to give it a 4G network.
    I am because we are
    (African saying)

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