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Thread: Another space race?

  1. #151
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    "Pentagon issues new strategy to defend U.S. dominance in space"

    https://spacenews.com/pentagon-issue...ance-in-space/

    The Defense Department has released an updated space strategy that replaces the 2011 document issued by the Obama administration.

    The Defense Space Strategy unveiled June 17 provides broad guidance to DoD for “achieving desired conditions in space over the next 10 years,” Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Space Policy Steve Kitay said at a Pentagon news conference.

    The space strategy builds on the Trump administration’s 2018 national defense strategy that calls for the U.S. military to prepare to compete with rising military powers such as China and Russia.

    DoD will work to maintain space superiority, provide space capabilities to U.S. and allied forces, and ensure stability in space, the strategy says.

    “DoD has to confront the new reality that adversaries have more advanced weapons designed to target U.S. military satellites and deny the United States a key military advantage,” says the strategy. “Now we have to defend U.S. and allies to secure the domain.”

    To ensure space superiority, DoD will work with allies and with the private sector, says the strategy.
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  2. #152
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    Bloomberg on the increasing competition between the US and China in space.- "China Threatens U.S. Space Power by Completing Satellite Network"

    https://www.bloombergquint.com/busin...ellite-network

    A Long March-3B rocket took off from a launchpad in Sichuan province Tuesday to put a satellite in orbit, giving China a win in its intensifying rivalry with the U.S. and boosting its ability to be self-reliant in new technologies.

    The five-ton satellite is the final piece of the Beidou network, a collection of several dozen satellites that is China’s alternative to the U.S.-run Global Positioning System. GPS provides navigation and timing data that is essential to operating everything from massive container ships to electric cars while also tracking the microchip in your dog.

    Completion of the Beidou network, estimated to cost more than $10 billion, is the latest milestone in China’s decades-long effort to become a power in space. In May, state media trumpeted the test flight of a next-generation spacecraft designed to take Chinese astronauts to the moon. China plans to send a robotic mission to explore Mars this summer and is moving ahead with plans to build its own space station.

    “This year is the time when China’s long-term space ambitions meet their fruition,” said Jonathan McDowell, an astronomer at the Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian. “In some ways, they stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the U.S. as a major space power.”
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  3. #153
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    "Newt Gingrich: China poses serious threat to US in new space race – no issue is more important"

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/chin...-newt-gingrich

    We are beginning the next great space race. It’s the United States versus China, in competition to be first to create systems for commercial space travel, to establish outposts on the moon, and ultimately to colonize other planets.

    Never has the time been more important to discuss the future of space exploration and the importance of space as an infrastructure investment. This is why I explore the U.S.-China space race and humanity’s future in space more broadly on this week’s episode of my podcast “Newt’s World.”
    Direct link to the podcast - “Newt’s World.”

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...EegQIChAE&ep=6
    Last edited by selvaarchi; 2020-Jul-06 at 01:52 PM.
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  4. #154
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    China is a clear threat to peace in space. The U.S. and Russia and Europe must join in opposing China's rise in space. I am really worried.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomar View Post
    China is a clear threat to peace in space. The U.S. and Russia and Europe must join in opposing China's rise in space. I am really worried.
    Most of the world and its leaders do not dread China's rise.

    More to the point of this forum, China remains woefully behind the West in rocketry. That they (and Europe and Russia and all else) have no major reusable rocket development efforts is a testament to the USA's lead.

    Within a few years the US gubbermint will be launching all sorts of defense stuff. Lots of it and cheaply. But probably it will be American corporations which will be first to cash in on growing space tourism. Space will grow ever more American.

    And, as with all other such activity (computers, cell phones, TVs), China and others will catch up, while showing us a thing or two, and space will become ever more commoditized and that is good for all of us.

    Cheers

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gomar View Post
    China is a clear threat to peace in space. The U.S. and Russia and Europe must join in opposing China's rise in space. I am really worried.

    Gomar,

    You know these kinds of political posts are not allowed. Infraction issued.

    Everyone else,

    The wisest reply to these kinds of posts is none at all.
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  7. #157
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    "Elon Musk says Chinese economy will surpass US by 2 or 3 times"

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/28/musk...ree-times.html

    Throughout his conversation with Thompson, Musk repeatedly stressed the importance of innovation in the United States in order to maintain its competitive edge. When it comes to space, Musk said that the U.S. is at risk of falling behind.

    “This is not something that was a risk in times past but is a risk now,” he said. “I have zero doubt that if the United States doesn’t seek innovation in space it will be second in space.” CNBC reported last week that SpaceX is seeking to raise about $250 million at a $36 billion valuation.
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  8. #158
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    When did Elon Musk become an authority on the growth or decline of national economies?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlaugh View Post
    When did Elon Musk become an authority on the growth or decline of national economies?
    He has degrees in Economics and Physics from the University of Pennsylvania, and is the 5th richest man in the world by way of running international businesses

  10. #160
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    Opinion piece in Newsweek "America's Space Strategy Comes of Age"

    https://www.newsweek.com/americas-sp...pinion-1521146

    The past few days have been momentous ones for America's approach to space.

    On July 23, the White House released its deep space exploration strategy, formally entitled "A New Era for Space Exploration and Development"—a high-level policy document that lays out both a strategy and a rationale for the development of a space-based industrial economy. On the heels of that report, earlier this week saw the release of "The Space Industrial Base 2020" (SIB2020), a study co-developed by the U.S. Space Force (USSF), the Pentagon's Defense Innovation Unit (DIU) and the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL), which lays out a comprehensive series of steps designed to maintain America's global leadership in space.

    The combined importance of these two studies cannot be understated. They make new and fundamental contributions to how the country sees its national security, and its future, in the space domain.
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  11. #161
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    America is in the lead in the majority of areas related to space, but other nations are challenging the US for leadership in some if not all the areas.

    https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/S...eport_999.html

    The 2020 State of the Space Industrial Base Workshop held in May brought together more than 120 space leaders from across the federal government, industry, and academia to assess the current health of the space industry and to provide recommendations for strengthening that industrial base.

    The State of the Space Industrial Base 2020 report was prepared by space leaders from the U.S. Space Force, Air Force Research Laboratory, and Defense Innovation Unit to summarize the virtual conference.

    The world stands at the threshold of a new era in space. Much of the foundation of this exciting era is American made, and much of the innovation powering it is born of American creativity and ingenuity. Other nations, however, are challenging the US for leadership of this next space age.
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  12. #162
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    7 minute video "The Rise of China in Space"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRln4kcPXuc
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    With the USAF, companies, and universities, progress is being made on a rotating detonation engine for flight and launch.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/rocket-...ossible-engine

  14. #164
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    Look like the stakes are higher then a space race! - "Is Earth-moon space the US military's new high ground?"

    https://www.space.com/earth-moon-spa...gh-ground.html

    U.S. military space policy officials have increasingly flagged a new role in guarding American assets and interests in Earth-moon space.

    This evolving doctrine extends to the moon's surface, given NASA's Artemis program of crewed lunar exploration and American companies' plans to mine moon resources such as water ice.

    What do space experts say about extending military tactics to a new "high ground" domain beyond Earth orbit? Space.com asked experts for their opinions regarding an evolving military doctrine that builds on air, land and sea warfare strategies — and is now headed for the ocean of deep space.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    Look like the stakes are higher then a space race! - "Is Earth-moon space the US military's new high ground?"

    https://www.space.com/earth-moon-spa...gh-ground.html
    As if the US would militarize the Moon:

    Moon.jpg

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    As if the US would militarize the Moon:

    Moon.jpg
    Heh, what is that image from?

    Going back to the early ‘60s, there were plans for a military lunar base and speculation about lunar missile bases and so on, but it became clear that the moon was just too far away and too expensive to build there. It made much more sense to have spy and com sats in earth orbit and keep missiles on the Earth.

    I doubt there would be any military expansion to the moon or deep space until there was major economic expansion there, and then it would be more in line with coast guard like duties, helping craft in trouble and so on. So I doubt much would be seen in that sense for a number of decades, and that only if things like Starship (low cost reusable launch) work out. The bigger issue will be about building small satellites in earth orbit and otherwise a strategy to deal with the growing ASAT risk.

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  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
    Heh, what is that image from?

    Going back to the early ‘60s, there were plans for a military lunar base and speculation about lunar missile bases and so on, but it became clear that the moon was just too far away and too expensive to build there. It made much more sense to have spy and com sats in earth orbit and keep missiles on the Earth.

    I doubt there would be any military expansion to the moon or deep space until there was major economic expansion there, and then it would be more in line with coast guard like duties, helping craft in trouble and so on. So I doubt much would be seen in that sense for a number of decades, and that only if things like Starship (low cost reusable launch) work out. The bigger issue will be about building small satellites in earth orbit and otherwise a strategy to deal with the growing ASAT risk.
    The image is from the trailer for Season 2 of 'For All Mankind'. Reagan is in the White House and the Moon is becoming another front in the Cold War. As you say back in the real world its ASAT's that are the big risk.

  18. #168
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    "China’s Space Program Is Driven by a Desire for Prestige, Not Military Might"

    https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...military-might

    On July 23, the Tianwen-1 spacecraft lifted off from the Wenchang Satellite Launch Center on Hainan Island, in southern China, bound for Mars. If all goes according to plan, the probe is scheduled to reach the red planet in February 2021. That would make China just the third country in history to land on Mars, after the United States and the Soviet Union. While Tianwen-1 is focused on scientific exploration, the decision for any country to invest in such an ambitious endeavor is always deeply political. And while analysts often emphasize the security motives driving China’s pursuit of advanced space technologies, its mission to Mars highlights the importance of international prestige in Chinese foreign policy.

    In the current period of heightened geopolitical tension between Washington and Beijing, it is easy for analysts to frame any maneuver by China in outer space as driven by a security-maximizing logic of realpolitik. Space technologies, by their very nature, are dual-use, meaning they can serve military functions even if they are ostensibly for purely civilian purposes. Moreover, China does not have an independent civilian space program like the United States; even China’s human spaceflight program is headed by officers of the People’s Liberation Army. Furthermore, the line between military and civilian technologies is becoming increasingly blurred as a result of China’s “military-civil fusion” policy, an effort to spur commercial and military technological innovation by removing barriers between China’s private sector and defense industry.

    Yet many of China’s most expensive and technologically complex missions, from human spaceflight to Tianwen-1, are poorly explained by security concerns, and they hardly represent an efficient path to increasing Chinese hard power. Human spaceflight, for example, is extremely expensive and offers limited military utility. During the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union abandoned their plans for using humans for reconnaissance in space, as they had far more effective and inexpensive alternatives, like observation satellites.
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  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    "China’s Space Program Is Driven by a Desire for Prestige, Not Military Might"

    https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/...military-might
    So you post an article suggesting that the various US efforts in manned spaceflight and sending probes to the moon might somehow lead to militarization, followed up by this article, which points out such things would be utterly wasteful in terms of militarizing space, but of course only in the context of the Chinese program. Perhaps you could explain in your own words why these realities apply to China and not to the USA? Is it just that US spaceflight programs are so far ahead of China's that such things are now practical for the USA but not China? Or is it simply a case of 'USA bad, China good?'

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Or is it simply a case of 'USA bad, China good?'
    But in your case it seems always a case of USA good, China bad (I’d honestly be happy to be shown wrong if there are instances where you have found the opposite). Couldn’t we all try to get over that and look at individual acts rather than thinking of who is always good and who is always bad?
    As above, so below

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    Let's say that prestige is the driving force behind the Chinese space program, is that really better than militarization? I mean isn't prestige just another word for vanity and you only have to look back to the Apollo era to see what happens when manned spaceflight becomes a political vanity project. Yes putting a man on the moon was tremendous achievement, but as soon as the USA proved 'we're number 1!' the program crumbled and no one has been back to the Moon in 50 years. Also lets not pretend that the history of spaceflight hasn't always been entwined with militarization.

    Of course I doubt that either prestige or militarization are going to be at the forefront of the next generation of manned spaceflight, its going to be the profit motive.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Let's say that prestige is the driving force behind the Chinese space program, is that really better than militarization? I mean isn't prestige just another word for vanity and you only have to look back to the Apollo era to see what happens when manned spaceflight becomes a political vanity project. Yes putting a man on the moon was tremendous achievement, but as soon as the USA proved 'we're number 1!' the program crumbled and no one has been back to the Moon in 50 years. Also lets not pretend that the history of spaceflight hasn't always been entwined with militarization.

    Of course I doubt that either prestige or militarization are going to be at the forefront of the next generation of manned spaceflight, its going to be the profit motive.
    It is pride more than prestige that is China's driving force - Their "100 years of humiliations" where the west forced them to buy opium and in return the west bought their silk, tea etc with the money is not forgotten.

    Their moon plans are not just human, but has a robotic series of missions before that. They also have plans for a base on the moon.
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    It is pride more than prestige that is China's driving force - Their "100 years of humiliations" where the west forced them to buy opium and in return the west bought their silk, tea etc with the money is not forgotten.
    selvaarchi
    This is completely inappropriate. It is partisan and inflammatory and has nothing to do with space exploration. This will earn you an infraction and the only reason you are not being suspended is your clean record.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Or is it simply a case of 'USA bad, China good?'
    Garrison
    Several of your posts have been a little too inflammatory; the quoted one is probably the worst. Please take it down a notch.

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    If this topic cannot be discussed politely, it will not be discussed here. Any more such posts and this thread will be closed.
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  24. #174
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    A book review in this week's Space Review - "China in Space: The Great Leap Forward, 2nd ed." gives an over view of their space program.

    https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4032/1

    As a country that developed its space program later than the US and Soviet Union, China had fewer “firsts” to strive for, and instead chose to focus on capabilities rather than propaganda feats. To the extent that the Chinese government extols its accomplishments, the primary audience appears to be a domestic rather than international one. But even so, China’s civil space ambitions do not appear to be greater than those of the United States, not by a long shot. China wants to use space, and to be recognized as a space power, but it is not pursuing fantastical goals of establishing an off-world economy. Harvey’s book explains how China has been pursuing its space program for its own ends, not to meet the expectations of Westerners.
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  25. #175
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    The book sounds biased, just like the review.

    cheers

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    These latest pronouncements don't sound like elements of a legitimate Space Race, they sound like tit-for-tat political swipes. I half expect the next article(s) from one nation or the other to be accompanied by a childish "so there!"
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  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7cscb View Post
    The book sounds biased, just like the review.
    Biased in what way? I read the review, and am not sure exactly what you mean. It seems that both Brian Harvey (the author) and Dwayne Day (the reviewer) are both journalists that cover space exploration in general, and who try to analyze the Chinese program as well. I guess it might be controversial that they seem to claim that people focus on what China might do, like start mining helium-3, without any strong indication that they actually will. Is that what you are talking about when you say "biased"?

    ETA: Just to be clear, I have read the review but not the book, so I can't really judge the book just by that.
    As above, so below

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jens View Post
    Biased in what way? I read the review, and am not sure exactly what you mean. It seems that both Brian Harvey (the author) and Dwayne Day (the reviewer) are both journalists that cover space exploration in general, and who try to analyze the Chinese program as well. I guess it might be controversial that they seem to claim that people focus on what China might do, like start mining helium-3, without any strong indication that they actually will. Is that what you are talking about when you say "biased"?

    ETA: Just to be clear, I have read the review but not the book, so I can't really judge the book just by that.
    I agree there are 'Westerners with agendas'. But that this (and other) is introduced in the review does not bode well for an informed and fair read.

  29. #179
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    A new report "China Task Force Report" (by a group of Republican House members) has a short section on space exploration.

    https://spacenews.com/report-backs-n...space-program/

    A new report used the growth of China’s space program to argue for continued support of NASA’s own exploration ambitions as well as legislation to assist the space industry and space traffic management.

    The China Task Force Report, prepared by a group of Republican House members and released Sept. 30, covers a wide range of issues that group linked to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and saw as threats to the United States. Much of the report was devoted to issues of national security and the economy.

    However, two pages of the 130-page report discussed space exploration. In it, the task force noted Chinese development of a space station and long-term, although as yet unscheduled, plans human lunar mission. “The U.S. should be concerned about the technological innovations and leadership role for the CCP that could come from missions crewed by [People’s Republic of China]-nationals to the Moon,” it stated,

    The recommendations in that section of the report, though, addressed NASA’s space exploration programs. “As the CCP seeks to attract international partners to support its own space exploration goals and expand its influence, the U.S. must maintain its presence in low-Earth orbit, return U.S. astronauts to the Moon, chart a future path for human exploration of Mars, and maintain a steady commitment to space science missions,” it stated.
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  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by selvaarchi View Post
    A new report "China Task Force Report" (by a group of Republican House members) has a short section on space exploration.

    https://spacenews.com/report-backs-n...space-program/
    Hardly surprising. Given that this is a bunch of politicians you can only look at it from a political perspective and given the current US administration has hardly been friendly towards China it's almost inevitable you are going to get members of the President's party banging the drum.

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