Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 33

Thread: How Do You Complain That Somebody's Gone Overboard With Political Correctness...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    12,235

    How Do You Complain That Somebody's Gone Overboard With Political Correctness...

    In computer gaming without looking like you're advocating evil? (As opposed to what actually happens.)

    In particular, areas regarding gender.

    It's a straw that broke the camel's back thing, mind you, not a constant obsession.

    I started getting flak on gaming sites on this. Started with a medieval battle sim where one does a lot of pike and square type combat and some metros wondered why there wasn't any playable female characters.

    It's a historical sim, there wasn't any!

    The reply to that? You ready for this?

    Then it was because men where keeping them down.

    Seriously? The reason women weren't included in pre-gunpowder era military formations was bigotry?

    For me that was one of those moments where you realize you aren't talking to somebody who's kin to you.

    I would imagine that even somebody as far away as Inclusa thinks closer to me than a lot of my own countrymen.

    Anyway, the last one was a trailer for the latest single player post zombie-apocalypse game on Steam.

    I objected because they would have me believe at a time when live humans seem to be fewer than one every thousand square miles that a man is going to shoot a woman just to steal her backpack and canteen.

    Yeah, if he *started* as a socio-pathic serial killer!

    (Good God, I'm so tired of the Hollywood types that believe it's fear of the law that keeps me from doing evil things to other people. Well, all art is a self-portrait, even movies.)

    The back-flak from me questioning that?

    "Well, he's all desperate for resources!"

    And what? He doesn't know how to talk to women? And instead of trying to explain that humans gather resources more effectively in groups because of cooperative behaviors...I made the mistake of saying on the internet:

    "Umm, in times like that, a lot of men would consider the woman herself a resource..."

    and they had to shut the thread down a few hours later.

    Some people only seem to hear what they want to hear, just so they can scream at it. (Shoot, Clev has called even me on that one a couple of times.)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    People who go overboard with political correctness are generally not people who take disagreement well. That's why they don't call it "political suggestions". To violate the orthodoxy of the One Right Way is thoughtcrime.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    (Shoot, Clev has called even me on that one a couple of times.)
    You're welcome.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    6,058
    Derisive laughter? Harder to do on a IM than voice.

    To be honest tho, I am not sure it would be all that 'psycho killer' in that sense. I think it has alot to do with the people involved and thier views. My evidence would be the difference between Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Ike. Houston didnt have any of the problems that New Orleans had after the respective hurricanes hit, even tho a far larger population was left in the dark. Or even the difference between Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita only a month later. Even tho the attempted evacuation of Houston was a fiasco, there still wasnt any chaos even tho Houston's population is several times larger.

    I think that some places would have brutality like killing someone for basically no reason, and that some places would be just the opposite.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mytho-poetic dreams.
    Posts
    11,944
    Reminds me of some Disney (?) - animated anyway - film we saw around 12 years ago. I cannot remember the title, but it's set around the year 1902. Something to do with machinery; trains or mining...I can't recall.

    In the cast are a teenaged Hispanic female mechanic, a lead adult white woman calling the shots, and some other "minority" characters in prominent roles.

    That's all nice and inclusive and PC.

    But in 1902, in that alleged setting, it'd be one racial group of males I'm certain. And I wondered, "How are kids going to react, when they find out certain of those characters wouldn't have been placed thusly in historical/real 1902?"

    It's dishonest.

    If it's now or going into the future, yes - be inclusive and diverse. But history often wasn't that!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mytho-poetic dreams.
    Posts
    11,944
    It might also be pointed out that Joan of Arc slept in full mesh/metal gear, to prevent being raped.

    There's empowerment, then there's reality.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    32,098
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Seriously? The reason women weren't included in pre-gunpowder era military formations was bigotry?
    . . . Yes?

    Look, a lot of women wouldn't have the strength, it's true. Or the interest. There are a lot of women without the interest in post-gunpowder era, too. But a woman with the strength and the interest? You think they'd let her? And let's face it, a lot of peasant women would have had the strength, because a lot of them would have been working in the fields. And, yes, there were also plenty of men who would not have made it safe for a woman, even on her own side, but it's certainly true now, too. The Supreme Court has even ruled that being raped by your own side is just one of the perils of war and that women have no right to insist that the DoD change that. So it wouldn't have been fun for a woman no matter what. But it's not like women had a choice.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    3,841
    Don,
    If you are good in your battle games, become a woman!
    Start up a load of sock puppet characters who are female, and play them.
    You might even start a trend!
    John

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Female warriors did exist in pre-gunpowder societies. They were uncommon, and many of them had to resort to disguising themselves as men in certain cultures, but look up, say, the Dahomey Amazons. The most feared army on a continent for 300 years, until machine guns came along.
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2014-Jan-10 at 07:41 PM.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    N.E.Ohio
    Posts
    22,006
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    It's a historical sim, there wasn't any!
    I think that's part of the issue.

    It's not history or a documentary. As far as fiction of a historical setting, the fact that it's a sim, rather than some kind of written story or drama, makes it hard to seperate from just being a game with female avatars. So; you're going to be open to interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Seriously? The reason women weren't included in pre-gunpowder era military formations was bigotry?
    Yep... women did "have their place".
    But; placing our moral views of the sexes to what was acceptable to them is unfair too.

    DS9:Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang comes to mind. It clearly demonstrates how two people (Ben and Kasidy) can have two entirely views when participating in fictional historical surroundings.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Tomoe Gozen. Artemisia. Boudicca. Nusaybah bnt Ka'ab. Joan of Arc. Hua Mulan. And that's just a few of those who made it into the histories.

    So, time to own up there, BD. You were wrong. Yes, even in patriarchal cultures there were female warriors. And yes, historically, it seems there would have been even more if they were allowed.

    Your comment about social cooperation was correct, though implementing it would complicate the game. But your next statement was certainly... indiscreet, shall we say, or ill-advised for a public venue. Not all thoughts need to be expressed.

    And implementing it would complicate the game.



    .
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2014-Jan-10 at 09:24 PM. Reason: addded details
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    32,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Female warriors did exist in pre-gunpowder societies. They were uncommon, and many of them had to resort to disguising themselves as men in certain cultures, but look up, say, the Dahomey Amazons. The most feared army on a continent for 300 years, until machine guns came along.
    Hey, yeah--there are plenty of examples of women disguising themselves as men to fight in battles, and not all of them come from old folk songs. Okay, the Civil War is not exactly pre-gunpowder, but there was a woman who got a Medal of Honor. Mary Edwards Walker was one of eight civilians ever to be honored--and she had it taken away and only restored in 1977. Because of course women can't get the Medal of Honor. Certainly no other woman ever has.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,114
    Fine line to tread here. True, there are historical examples of women in combat, but by and large it was, and is in most cases, less common. Also true about the brutal treatment of women, past and present.

    A sim is up to preference, and if historical accuracy is sought, something from that era would be more typically as BD describes. Yet I find that often people are loathe to be anachronistic in value judgments, at least in one direction; while happy to imagine bright futures, many are reluctant to deal with darker pasts, as if it depicting were condoning.

    But what counts here is the venue, which is already brutal, its selling point. Coming as it does amidst all the online beheadings and bloodshed, the ire was much ado about nothing, imo. In this context, I'm with BD. Same comments in Farmville 2 would be another story.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    16,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Reminds me of some Disney (?) - animated anyway - film we saw around 12 years ago. I cannot remember the title, but it's set around the year 1902. Something to do with machinery; trains or mining...I can't recall.

    In the cast are a teenaged Hispanic female mechanic, a lead adult white woman calling the shots, and some other "minority" characters in prominent roles.

    That's all nice and inclusive and PC.

    But in 1902, in that alleged setting, it'd be one racial group of males I'm certain. And I wondered, "How are kids going to react, when they find out certain of those characters wouldn't have been placed thusly in historical/real 1902?"

    It's dishonest.

    If it's now or going into the future, yes - be inclusive and diverse. But history often wasn't that!
    If you mean Atlantis: The Lost Empire, it's actually set in 1914, and while I agree that an expedition in that time period would not likely be so inclusive, it is also a 1914 where the construction and operation of something comparable to a modern nuclear submarine is within the means of a wealthy private citizen, so it's not necessarily "our" history.
    Last edited by KaiYeves; 2014-May-22 at 07:33 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mytho-poetic dreams.
    Posts
    11,944
    Quote Originally Posted by KaiYeves View Post
    If you mean Atlantis: The Lost Empire, it's actually set in 1914, and I agree that an expedition in that time period would not likely be so inclusive, it is also a 1914 where the construction and operation of something comparable to a modern nuclear submarine is within the means of a wealthy private citizen, so it's not necessarily "our" history.
    Yes, it's that. Had the set year wrong, but quite a while ago now.

    It wouldn't have been so inclusive, in real life, in that time.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    And I wondered, "How are kids going to react, when they find out certain of those characters wouldn't have been placed thusly in historical/real 1902?"
    So you have no trouble with the historical accuracy of floating heads or the magic ice crystal, but the casting gives you a problem?

    If a film is clearly a fantasy, then IMO historical accuracy should not be expected because it's not actual history.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mytho-poetic dreams.
    Posts
    11,944
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    So you have no trouble with the historical accuracy of floating heads or the magic ice crystal, but the casting gives you a problem?
    I didn't remember what exactly the film was about (mentioned that prior). Didn't even remember the title. Please don't get nit-picky.

    If a film is clearly a fantasy, then IMO historical accuracy should not be expected because it's not actual history.
    I disagree. It's set in a specific year; unless it's stated (or strongly implied) in the film that it's a parallel universe.

    Ah well, moving on...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    11,057
    Having magic in a specific historical setting does not mean all the known history has to go out the window.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    Having magic in a specific historical setting does not mean all the known history has to go out the window.
    It's a matter of storytelling focus. Unless the premise of the show is "look at what things were actually like for people back then", adding in realistic prejudice can distract from the main storyline, especially in a kids' show.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Down Under
    Posts
    378
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
    Don,
    If you are good in your battle games, become a woman!
    Start up a load of sock puppet characters who are female, and play them.
    You might even start a trend!
    John
    Hardly. Already more than common in MMOs (i.e. MMORPG, massively multi-player online role playing games, for those who have avoided that genre).

    Heck, I used to do it! Though I went by the Penny Arcade principle: if I have to stare at somebody's a*se for hours (as they're generaly 3rd person perspective) it might as well be an attractive female behind. People complain about the female body stereotypes, but the male ones are in some ways often worse - there aren't enough steroids in both real and fantasy universes to obtain the ridiculous - and ugly - beefcake look they sport.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Depew, NY
    Posts
    12,841
    My user name "Solfe" was created for an online game where women were a small part of the player base. The name is feminine sounding or ambiguous at best, so the advantage was that I would be invited to participate in quest because I was "different". I found an odd magical mechanic that allow my character to be nigh invulnerable for about 90 seconds and the game IA has a tendency randomly picking targets at first. By virtue of being in a large group of people, I would have either 10 seconds to "get invulnerable" or 90 seconds to unleash mayhem. So I play a man wearing glasses and a pen knife with no real weapons or armor in a game almost entirely driven by getting the best weapons and armor. I am often walking around with a book in combat which makes my character even stranger.
    Solfe

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    The Lion King has the opposite problem from Atlantis; it teaches rule by heredity, social stratification and racism (The Hyenas are all bad! And they're moving into a good neighborhood!) and bad science (In the real world lions are often scavengers on night time hyena kills).
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    3,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Marakai View Post
    Hardly. Already more than common in MMOs (i.e. MMORPG, massively multi-player online role playing games, for those who have avoided that genre).

    Heck, I used to do it! Though I went by the Penny Arcade principle: if I have to stare at somebody's a*se for hours (as they're generaly 3rd person perspective) it might as well be an attractive female behind. People complain about the female body stereotypes, but the male ones are in some ways often worse - there aren't enough steroids in both real and fantasy universes to obtain the ridiculous - and ugly - beefcake look they sport.
    Is Don talking of a different style of game, then?
    John

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    12,235
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    It might also be pointed out that Joan of Arc slept in full mesh/metal gear, to prevent being raped.

    There's empowerment, then there's reality.
    If you think on that that would only work if your assailants lacked opposable thumbs...

    I'm more likely thinking that was what "somebody said".

    Marakai - Somebody once said MMORPG stood for many men online roleplaying girls.

    Clev - I concede nothing. () The specific period was central Europe around the Protestant Reformation in the 1500's, not every human conflict.

    Solfe - I'd used female characters in fishing games for that very reason. If I'm going to be looking at it for a long time, I'd prefer it not be guy butt.

    JohnD - Not on this board...

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Clev - I concede nothing. () The specific period was central Europe around the Protestant Reformation in the 1500's, not every human conflict.
    And you think that this one place and time was somehow an exception to the vast majority of other places and times with patriarchal warrior cultures? Especially in a time of religious war, some women are going to get worked up enough to go out there and fight.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight#..._of_knighthood
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    12,235
    'Morning Clev.

    Alright. Alright. I'll change my tune.

    I cede nothing because I'm a stubborn, unreasoning *******.

    There, you win!

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Now, BigDon, come on now. You started this thread to complain about other people being stubborn unreasonable [censored]. Nobody "wins" when someone refuses to face facts.

    I'm going to stop pushing you now, I'll hop off this thread and just let things simmer for a while. Maybe do some research, find out some history. It couldn't hurt.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mytho-poetic dreams.
    Posts
    11,944
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    If you think on that that would only work if your assailants lacked opposable thumbs...
    I dunno, Joan was a pretty tough chick. While being outfitted for armor, the "tailor" tried getting fresh. She punched him in the face, knocked him out.

    But I'm sure she had some bodyguard protection on the field, while asleep. Because where there's a will, there's a way...

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    12,235
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Now, BigDon, come on now. You started this thread to complain about other people being stubborn unreasonable [censored]. Nobody "wins" when someone refuses to face facts.

    I'm going to stop pushing you now, I'll hop off this thread and just let things simmer for a while. Maybe do some research, find out some history. It couldn't hurt.
    Oh Clev!

    I'm not mad! I'm wasted on my new meds and was shooting for a roundabout way to concede to you. (I take them at 6 and at 6 and they plaster me with a huge vicodin-like rush for hours.)

    Critical fumble on the humor attempt!

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nowhere (middle)
    Posts
    39,923
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDon View Post
    Oh Clev!

    I'm not mad! I'm wasted on my new meds and was shooting for a roundabout way to concede to you. (I take them at 6 and at 6 and they plaster me with a huge vicodin-like rush for hours.)

    Critical fumble on the humor attempt!
    It's OK. I did and do often have that problem with my jokes, even back when I was on nothing but air, food and water.
    "I'm planning to live forever. So far, that's working perfectly." Steven Wright

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    18,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    And you think that this one place and time was somehow an exception to the vast majority of other places and times with patriarchal warrior cultures? Especially in a time of religious war, some women are going to get worked up enough to go out there and fight.
    About 1400 women served as (male) soldiers in the American civil war.
    The thing is, rape is less likely to be a concern when the fellow soldiers don't know it's a woman.

    And it's definitely a problem in current armies such as the American one, where a female soldier is more likely to be raped by "fellow" soldiers than killed by enemies.
    __________________________________________________
    Reductionist and proud of it.

    Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. Benjamin Franklin
    Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails. Clarence Darrow
    A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. Mark Twain

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •