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Thread: Some Non-trivial Things That Annoy Me.

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
    What if it is? Does your analogy still hold then? If not, would then not simply putting signs on restaurants saying "smoking happens here" solve the issue according to your analogy?
    Do you know of many public places that do have such signs about smoking? If so, then yes, I agree that it would go a long way towards solving the problem.

    I thought you said it was in a room? Besides, if you're making the open-air health risk argument here, i'll ask you for the same reference.
    Personal experience watching my mother needlessly suffer. If a good breeze was blowing and she could find a place upwind some distance from the smoker, then open air smoking largely did not bother her lungs. Her own mother smoked, as I said. But since outdoor air conditions are rarely cooperative or predictable, it varied by circumstance. "Open air" does not automatically mean smoke dissipates harmlessly before reaching another's lung.
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  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
    If society on the whole considers cigarette smoke to have an offensive odour, then why is it so common for you to encounter it?
    I said smoke is way more common to smell than perfume, in my experience. I don't know how this raises your statement.

    But anyway: when I walk down the street in Wellington, many many more people are NOT smoking than smoking. However (and this is the crux) the non-smokers are generally doing little to bother me. But a smoker blowing a cloud of smoke in front of me is bothering me, by their choice of activity, so I have to take action to avoid it.

    ETA: even so, if i happen to like a perfume that a majority of society considers offensive, does that mean that it should be illegal for me to wear it on the street?
    Perhaps it could get that way. Yes. Society will decide. Just like we've ended up with public smoking laws, maybe we'll have public use of perfume laws.


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  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
    If the purpose of a restaurant wasn't having both a meal and a smoke afterwards, then why were people generally going there for that? Is not the most objective way to determine the "purpose" of a venue the observation of what people do there?
    Drug dealing frequently happens in dance clubs, yet most people who go there do so to dance.
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  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Do you know of many public places that do have such signs about smoking? If so, then yes, I agree that it would go a long way towards solving the problem.
    If the law is that smoking is allowed unless there is a sign saying "smoke-free", does then the absense of any sign not hold the same information content as if there were a "smoking" one?

    Personal experience watching my mother needlessly suffer. If a good breeze was blowing and she could find a place upwind some distance from the smoker, then open air smoking largely did not bother her lungs. Her own mother smoked, as I said. But since outdoor air conditions are rarely cooperative or predictable, it varied by circumstance. "Open air" does not automatically mean smoke dissipates harmlessly before reaching another's lung.
    Sure, but your mother, being specifically allergic to tobacco smoke, is an outlier here.
    Last edited by caveman1917; 2013-Nov-04 at 01:25 AM.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Drug dealing frequently happens in dance clubs, yet most people who go there do so to dance.
    You're using the term frequently differently in both cases. There is frequently in the sense of "most dance clubs have at least one drug dealer" and frequently as in "most people in dance clubs deal drugs". You stated that the problem with someone sitting near to your mother and lighting up a cigarette was frequent, leading to the conclusion that generically people smoked in restaurants. Not in the sense of most restaurants having at least one smoker, but in the sense of many people in restaurants smoking. Especially since your mother actually took steps to sit away from smoking people, yet still have people next to her light up frequently.

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
    I said smoke is way more common to smell than perfume, in my experience. I don't know how this raises your statement.
    About 20% of people smoke, so that is a lower bound on the number of people that don't find the odour offensive (at least offensive enough to avoid). That's hardly "the whole of society", and the proportion is probably a lot higher.

    But anyway: when I walk down the street in Wellington, many many more people are NOT smoking than smoking. However (and this is the crux) the non-smokers are generally doing little to bother me. But a smoker blowing a cloud of smoke in front of me is bothering me, by their choice of activity, so I have to take action to avoid it.
    If say 70% percent of people find the odour offensive of a certain strong perfume that 20% of people like to wear, does that mean it should be illegal to wear the perfume in the street?

    Perhaps it could get that way. Yes. Society will decide. Just like we've ended up with public smoking laws, maybe we'll have public use of perfume laws.
    I think public smoking laws came out of health concerns, not odour concerns.

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
    If the law is that smoking is allowed unless there is a sign saying "smoke-free", does then the absense of a "smoking" sign not hold the same information content as if there were one?
    There were no such laws in our area at the time this was occurring. And no, a lack of sign merely shows that no one put up a sign either way.

    Sure, but your mother, being specifically allergic to tobacco smoke, is an outlier here.
    It was my description of her that started your rant! You use her as an example and then change your mind later? The hypocrisy in such a statement is staggering.

    Unbelievable. I now remember why I dropped out of this topic to begin with.
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  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    There were no such laws in our area at the time this was occurring.
    I'm not familiar with US law, but in Belgium the general rule is that anything that is not specifically forbidden by law is allowed, and at the time there was no law against smoking in restaurants - making an effective law that smoking was allowed in restaurants.

    And no, a lack of sign merely shows that no one put up a sign either way.
    Really? Do you expect to be subjected to lethal radiation everywhere you go that has no sign saying specifically that the place is not flooded with radiation? The lack of such a radiation hazard sign does not hold any information content to you? You cannot conclude from the premises "if X is not true then Y is indicated" and "Y is not indicated" the statement "X is true"?

    It was my description of her that started your rant! You use her as an example and then change your mind later? The hypocrisy in such a statement is staggering.
    Hypocrisy? I've asked for a reference for a purported effect (health risk of open-air smoking), and you've provided a statistical outlier. And when i point that out you think i am being hypocritical?

    Unbelievable.
    I agree. If you are asked for a reference for an effect, do you always cherry-pick outlier values that agree with it? Yes, if someone with a specific allergy to tobacco smoke were to come into contact with even minor concentrations of tobacco smoke then there would be a health risk. Does that prove the health risk of minor concentrations of tobacco smoke, which was, after all, the question?
    Last edited by caveman1917; 2013-Nov-04 at 01:48 AM.

  9. #339
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    http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/121-a229/

    http://www.repace.com/pdf/OTS_FACT_SHEET.pdf

    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2007/m...ng-050907.html

    Or, you know, you could look and see smoke plumes. Okay, so my danger in encountering a couple of people a week isn't all that high, but I am being exposed to toxins, and the smoke isn't just dissipating harmlessly.

    You know what? I like to eat semi-reclined. So all restaurants should accommodate that. It doesn't matter if it's inconvenient to everyone else. It doesn't matter if having low tables is bad for the employees there, because they have to bend over all the time. Since the world revolves around me and my wishes, instead of the majority (remember, if 20% of a population smokes, 80% does not), clearly, all restaurants should have couches instead of chairs. Yes, I could take my habit that inconveniences some people and is actively bad for others elsewhere and eat while semi-reclined at home, but it's much better to insist that people who want to eat sitting in chairs should do things my way.

    I'd also note that the smoking ban in Washington State, where Treb and I live, was passed by the initiative process. We voted to ban smoking in restaurants and bars; it was what the majority wanted. We've passed increases on smoking taxes by initiative a time or two, with the extra money going to make up for the enormous cost that smoking-related diseases creates for the state. Because contrary to the claim that reduced lifespans in smokers helps the Social Security system, it costs governments a fortune and so is actively bad for them that way, too.
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  10. #340
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    STOP

    The issue of where smoking should be allowed is clearly a legal/political issue, as much of the discussion has been about the laws regarding it. It is also clearly an emotional issue, since it has gone on for 3 pages just today.

    There will be no more posting on this topic. Any post will earn the poster an infraction.

    If you have a problem with this decision, Report the post (apparently a forgotten skill in this thread).
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  11. #341
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    My workplace got a visit today by a guy apparently sent by our security company to inspect the door alarm.
    Without prior notice. With an outdated contact address.

    ...I asked the guy who handles our security contract to call them and ask if they are really that stupid or if they didn't, in fact, send anyone and we should call the police.
    I hope he did it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jokergirl View Post
    My workplace got a visit today by a guy apparently sent by our security company to inspect the door alarm.
    Without prior notice. With an outdated contact address.

    ...I asked the guy who handles our security contract to call them and ask if they are really that stupid or if they didn't, in fact, send anyone and we should call the police.
    I hope he did it.

    Makes you feel secure, doesn't it?
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  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Makes you feel secure, doesn't it?
    I see what you did there!

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by jokergirl View Post
    I hope he did it.
    Same here. Security scams are starting to grow for some reason.
    I've been getting plenty of scam calls in that area. I told one that they are violating the do-not-call list, and they replied "yes, we are". So; they are even getting brazen about it.

    On a related, but not highly related anecdote:
    Several years ago (in another building) our fire alarm got triggered. Nothing major, but enough that it was just as well that the fire dept should check it out. Now, this was a somewhat small office park with maybe a dozen or so multi-story buildings.

    While standing outside, we watched the fire-trucks pass by the building - twice. Somehow the alarm was registered at the wrong address so I can understand the FD's confustion.
    But; don't you think one of the units would have stopped to ask if there was a problem when they saw hundreds of people standing outside with no visible reason why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Same here. Security scams are starting to grow for some reason.
    We had an incident with scammers coming door to door, asking if they could install "free security system upgrades". Without asking what brand of security system we had. Called the cops, it turns out they or someone like them had done this before in the same neighborhood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    But; don't you think one of the units would have stopped to ask if there was a problem when they saw hundreds of people standing outside with no visible reason why?
    I'm guessing that when an emergency services vehicle has been dispatched to a specific location, stopping somewhere else just to see what's going on is probably on the "Things Not To Do" list.

  17. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    Originally Posted by NEOWatcher
    But; don't you think one of the units would have stopped to ask if there was a problem when they saw hundreds of people standing outside with no visible reason why?
    I'm guessing that when an emergency services vehicle has been dispatched to a specific location, stopping somewhere else just to see what's going on is probably on the "Things Not To Do" list.
    That's actually not an easy question. There is no definitive answer and rules governing this vary from department to department. In NEOWatcher's case, since the crowd of people was for the call they were dispatched to, and their were multiple units, the answer might seem more obvious, but I don't know what that department's policy might be.

    More commonly (though still rare) is the single police car or single medical unit, dispatched to a call, that comes up another emergency enroute to the first call. Some departments will have you stop and at least assess the relative criticality of the call, others will require you to notify dispatch without stopping and proceed to your first call.
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  18. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanF View Post
    I'm guessing that when an emergency services vehicle has been dispatched to a specific location, stopping somewhere else just to see what's going on is probably on the "Things Not To Do" list.
    Possible, and what Swift says is possible too.

    But; After the first time through, they obviously knew they didn't find the building, so this crowd of people might actually know something.

  19. #349
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    This is a continuation my recent contribution to the 'Really trivial stuff that bugs you' thread. There, I described how I'd taken my new truck to the nerd herd guys to install a remote start system and they had lost my remote fob charging cable and emptied my glove box onto the rear floor and left it there. Well, I dropped by to pick up a replacement charging cable and afterward, spoke to a manager about my concerns. During that conversation I told him that otherwise, I thought they had done an adequate job on the installation. That is, the system works. I spoke too soon.

    When I got back in my truck, my leg brushed against something so I looked down to see a tag. The tag was attached to a loop of wire. I looked under the dash to see that the loop of wire was attached to the bypass interface box (required for vehicles that have chipped keys) and that box was attached to a wiring bundle. I thought it was an odd way to do things and gave the small box gentle turn one way then the other as I looked at it. It was then that the main control box for the starter system flopped out from under the dash, onto the floor...right next to the brake pedal. Knuckleheads. The manager took pictures and gave me a partial refund on the install while a tech secured the mess. Lesson learned.
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  20. #350
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    They have nerd guys in Alaska? From what I see on TV, they only have idiot crab fishermen, idiot gold miners, idiot truckdrivers, and idiot homesteaders up there.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

  21. #351
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    This does at least sound like idiot nerd guys.
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    "You can't erase icing."

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    And failed politicians turned pundit. (Not an idiot, just has "different sanity".)
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  23. #353
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    @Clev: It took me a minute, but I got it.
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    I'm not going to go into any detail about which initiative it was. However, a friend's response to the fact that it is apparently going to lose involved the "word" "sheeple." She knew I disagreed with her about it, too, but apparently, not for any legitimate reason. Because I disagreed with what she believes to be the only reasonable opinion.
    _____________________________________________
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    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    Sheeple is technically a word; a loaded, prejudicial buzzword neologism and overused to boot, but a word. It is a sound or collection of written letters that conveys meaning. The meaning is "the user of this word disrespects and looks down on those who disagree with him to the point of comparing them to farm animals".
    Last edited by Noclevername; 2013-Nov-06 at 07:27 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    Sheeple is technically a word; a loaded, prejudicial buzzword neologism and overused to boot, but a word. It is a sound or collection of written letters that conveys meaning. The meaning is "the user of this world disrespects and looks down on those who disagree with him to the point of comparing them to farm animals".
    Nice one - I really like the idea of defining a word in terms of what it says about the user.

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    I'd used the phrase "stam-people" before "sheeple"; if given a chance, most people will run right over a bad leader or spokesperson.

    Usually, that is exactly the situation when the word "sheeple" is used, only the leader misunderstands their peril.
    Solfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solfe View Post
    I'd used the phrase "stam-people" before "sheeple"; if given a chance, most people will run right over a bad leader or spokesperson.

    Usually, that is exactly the situation when the word "sheeple" is used, only the leader misunderstands their peril.
    The word Democracy itself started out as a sheeple-like insult made by its opponents, it translates as "mob rule" or "rule by the rabble" (the common lower class)
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  29. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    And failed politicians turned pundit. (Not an idiot, just has "different sanity".)
    Please don't go there
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  30. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
    They have nerd guys in Alaska? From what I see on TV, they only have idiot crab fishermen, idiot gold miners, idiot truckdrivers, and idiot homesteaders up there.
    That's us: idiots, one and all...and a 'third world' state among the 50. Don't forget that it's also cold year-round, dark for half of that, all Alaska Natives are Eskimos, and our state bird is the penguin...no particular species, just any old penguin.
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